Beautiful Women and the Moon


#1

What is the difference between seeing a bright orange full moon on the horizon out of the corner of your eye, and stopping to admire it for a few minutes, and seeing a beautiful women walk by and stopping to admire her beauty for some the same amount of time.

Please assume you never undress her with your eyes or think lustful thoughts--it is pure admiration of beauty (feel free to challenge that this assumption is physically possible).

My conscience is telling me that there is a difference between admiring the beauty of a real woman in public and admiring a beautiful depiction of a woman in the form of a painting or statue. I am having a hard time coming up with words to describe what my conscience is telling me.


#2

Maybe your conscience is observing that the is a difference between a real, living woman and an inanimate object.

There is nothing wrong with admiring beauty, but there is something wrong if you fail to recognize that a beautiful woman is much more that just something beautiful. If you miss out on her humanity, you’ve missed something beautiful.


#3

Exactly. Most of us know people who, while they are physically good looking, have no spirit or personality to them, or worse, a deeply flawed spirit and personality (selfish, abusive or whatever. Such a person is deeply unattractive.

And the opposite holds true too - we all know people who, while physically they are nothing special, have such a beautiful spirit that it radiates from them and makes them most attractive.


#4

If no lust is present, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with admiring the physical beauty of another person.


#5

There's probably a fine line there between genuine admiration and objectifying. If dwelled upon too long, even if no lustful thoughts occur, is probably entering into the realm of objectifying the person as an object of beauty instead of seeing them as a living person with a soul.


#6

[quote="CrimsonThorn, post:5, topic:316887"]
There's probably a fine line there between genuine admiration and objectifying. If dwelled upon too long, even if no lustful thoughts occur, is probably entering into the realm of objectifying the person as an object of beauty instead of seeing them as a living person with a soul.

[/quote]

So if we think someone is very beautiful and we like looking at them because they are beautiful we are still "objectifying" them even when lust isn't present? :confused:

Honestly, this whole thread seems a little silly to me. There is absolutely nothing wrong or controversial about admiring the physical beauty of another person. I don't understand why this is even being discussed.


#7

Clearly if you think someone is beautiful that is fine.

But if you just want to gaze upon them endlessly due to their beauty or have them around because of their beauty, then I would think that to be objectifying the person.

Do you think of the person as a person or do you think of them as “that beautiful thing”?

I think post #2 said it better than myself.


#8

[quote="CrimsonThorn, post:7, topic:316887"]
Clearly if you think someone is beautiful that is fine.

But if you just want to gaze upon them endlessly due to their beauty or have them around because of their beauty, then I would think that to be objectifying the person.

Do you think of the person as a person or do you think of them as "that beautiful thing"?

I think post #2 said it better than myself.

[/quote]

I'm not sure about having them around because of their beauty... that's a little weird. But I don't see anything wrong with gazing endlessly due to someone's beauty. I think my husband is extremely handsome, and yeah... I'll gaze at him and stare at him a lot sometimes because he's beautiful to me. That doesn't have anything to do with objectification.

Likewise, if I see a cute baby I'll stare at it every chance I get just because it's absolutely adorable and pleasing to the eye... is that objectification as well? If lust isn't involved, then I don't see why staring at a beautiful person is any more objectifying than staring at an adorable child.


#9

[quote="yellow8yellowM, post:1, topic:316887"]
What is the difference between seeing a bright orange full moon on the horizon out of the corner of your eye, and stopping to admire it for a few minutes, and seeing a beautiful women walk by and stopping to** admire her beauty for some the same amount of time.**

Please assume you never undress her with your eyes or think lustful thoughts--it is pure admiration of beauty (feel free to challenge that this assumption is physically possible).

My conscience is telling me that there is a difference between admiring the beauty of a real woman in public and admiring a beautiful depiction of a woman in the form of a painting or statue. I am having a hard time coming up with words to describe what my conscience is telling me.

[/quote]

[quote="Debora123, post:6, topic:316887"]
So if we think someone is very beautiful and we like looking at them because they are beautiful we are still "objectifying" them even when lust isn't present? :confused:

Honestly, this whole thread seems a little silly to me. There is absolutely nothing wrong or controversial about admiring the physical beauty of another person. I don't understand why this is even being discussed.

[/quote]

Maybe I was too subtle in my post. Everybody would agree that there is nothing wrong with seeing a beautiful person, admiring their beauty, and then instantaneously moving on. The problem comes when you admire them for a period of time longer than an instant. In my hypothetical, I use a few minutes, because I thought there would be a consensus that it would be weird to stare at someone for that long.

Why is weird to stare at a beautiful person for a long time and not weird to stare at the moon for a long time. I think post#2 hit it on the head, but I still there may be a more full answer out there, that again, I am not able to articulate.


#10

[quote="yellow8yellowM, post:9, topic:316887"]
Maybe I was too subtle in my post. Everybody would agree that there is nothing wrong with seeing a beautiful person, admiring their beauty, and then instantaneously moving on. The problem comes when you admire them for a period of time longer than an instant. In my hypothetical, I use a few minutes, because I thought there would be a consensus that it would be weird to stare at someone for that long.

Why is weird to stare at a beautiful person for a long time and not weird to stare at the moon for a long time. I think post#2 hit it on the head, but I still there may be a more full answer out there, that again, I am not able to articulate.

[/quote]

Yeah, I still don't get it. I probably just completely disagree.


#11

[quote="yellow8yellowM, post:1, topic:316887"]
What is the difference between seeing a bright orange full moon on the horizon out of the corner of your eye, and stopping to admire it for a few minutes, and seeing a beautiful women walk by and stopping to admire her beauty for some the same amount of time.

Please assume you never undress her with your eyes or think lustful thoughts--it is pure admiration of beauty (feel free to challenge that this assumption is physically possible).

My conscience is telling me that there is a difference between admiring the beauty of a real woman in public and admiring a beautiful depiction of a woman in the form of a painting or statue. I am having a hard time coming up with words to describe what my conscience is telling me.

[/quote]

Lust is completely in contrast with appreciating true beauty. There is nothing wrong with admiring a beautiful human being, especially when it is also true of their inward being.

No one has ever been aroused by a beautiful nude sculpture for example.


#12

[quote="yellow8yellowM, post:9, topic:316887"]
...Why is weird to stare at a beautiful person for a long time and not weird to stare at the moon for a long time. I think post#2 hit it on the head, but I still there may be a more full answer out there, that again, I am not able to articulate.

[/quote]

Thanks. I tried to sum it up in my previous post, but I'll elaborate a litte more.

Some of this is covered simply by rules of good manners: "It's impolite to stare at people."

Debora wrote about finding her husband attractive, but that's different because he is her husband, so she has some right to look at him for however long it pleases her. Gazing at one's spouse is different from staring at total strangers or casual aquaintances who have not given you permission to look at them for long periods of time.

If you were to attend a play or ballet, the performers have allowed you permission to look at them for longer periods of time. Go ahead and appreciate them and their artistry! Look as long as the show is on. If you want to attend my daughter's dance performance and you enjoy her beauty as well as her dance, then no one will find it creeepy. However, if my daughter or some other young lady happens to catch your eye while walking down the street, then anything beyond a few seconds starts to cross an undefined line. A person who is going about her own business did not invite you to stare at her, so don't do it. It's kind of creepy.

Not to brag or anything, but I think my children are beautiful. :curtsey::pshaw: And yes, even with my babies, there is undefined line that some people cross sometimes.

Looking is okay. Smiling and interacting is okay. Staring is not okay. If you smile and attempt to interact with eye contact, from there you should pick up on social clues--and socializing reminds you that you are dealing with a human person, (not an inanimate object). The person's response will usually let you know if your further attention is welcome or not. If you are interacting with the other person, you are not staring.


I assume the op is a single man available for dating.

*If *you are a married man or otherwise committed, I advise you when you see a beautiful woman, to think of your wife, your daughter, your mother or the Blessed Mother. Then after a short glance, get back to minding your own business and perhaps turn you eyes to gaze at the moon and leave the poor girl alone!


#13

[quote="LightFromLight, post:11, topic:316887"]
Lust is completely in contrast with appreciating true beauty. There is nothing wrong with admiring a beautiful human being, especially when it is also true of their inward being.

No one has ever been aroused by a beautiful nude sculpture for example.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#14

[quote="gardenswithkids, post:12, topic:316887"]
Thanks. I tried to sum it up in my previous post, but I'll elaborate a litte more.

Some of this is covered simply by rules of good manners: "It's impolite to stare at people."

Debora wrote about finding her husband attractive, but that's different because he is her husband, so she has some right to look at him for however long it pleases her. Gazing at one's spouse is different from staring at total strangers or casual aquaintances who have not given you permission to look at them for long periods of time.

If you were to attend a play or ballet, the performers have allowed you permission to look at them for longer periods of time. Go ahead and appreciate them and their artistry! Look as long as the show is on. If you want to attend my daughter's dance performance and you enjoy her beauty as well as her dance, then no one will find it creeepy. However, if my daughter or some other young lady happens to catch your eye while walking down the street, then anything beyond a few seconds starts to cross an undefined line. A person who is going about her own business did not invite you to stare at her, so don't do it. It's kind of creepy.

Not to brag or anything, but I think my children are beautiful. :curtsey::pshaw: And yes, even with my babies, there is undefined line that some people cross sometimes.

Looking is okay. Smiling and interacting is okay. Staring is not okay. If you smile and attempt to interact with eye contact, from there you should pick up on social clues--and socializing reminds you that you are dealing with a human person, (not an inanimate object). The person's response will usually let you know if your further attention is welcome or not. If you are interacting with the other person, you are not staring.


I assume the op is a single man available for dating.

*If *you are a married man or otherwise committed, I advise you when you see a beautiful woman, to think of your wife, your daughter, your mother or the Blessed Mother. Then after a short glance, get back to minding your own business and perhaps turn you eyes to gaze at the moon and leave the poor girl alone!

[/quote]

Well then this is completely different.

You're saying that the "staring" part is not necessarily a good thing because it's impolite and rude to stare if they are strangers. I'll completely agree with that. But as far as simply finding someone very beautiful, and taking enjoyment out of looking at them because of their beauty? No, I don't think there's anything wrong or objectifying with that, as long as you're not being rude or creepy by staring when it's inappropriate to do so.


#15

I am a man:

The fact of seeing, of looking at and of admiring the physical beauty of a woman is not immoral and is not sinful, per se and by nature;

The fact of noting and of admiring the moral and spiritual beauty of a woman is not immoral and is not sinful, per se and by nature;

The fact of seeing, of looking at and of admiring the physical beauty of a woman and the fact of noting and of admiring the moral and spiritual beauty of a woman are not immoral and are not sinful, per se and by nature;

Woman is composed of a female body and of a female soul. Thus, in looking at the physical beauty of a woman, in the good way (no lust), I am doing a natural action, I am watching a beautiful creature of God, a feminine human person: the alterity and the complementarity of my own humanity;

The beauty of body of a woman and the beauty of the soul of a woman are gifts coming from God.

My conclusion is the same than Debora123, " this whole thread seems a little silly to me. There is absolutely nothing wrong or controversial about admiring the physical beauty of another person. I don't understand why this is even being discussed ". The same moral view for a woman with the men.

And even more, the same moral view for a woman with the women, and for a man with men, but here the degree is different, the natural moral order prohibiting, by essence, the natural sexual desire between the same sex persons.

For me, this type of thread means many things: some intellectual approaches full of....... you can complete.!!!!!!!!!!


#16

In all honesty, this type of thread seems to me very in link with the English speaking countries and their mentalities coming from the melting-pot between the fundamentalist protestantisms of some past times -- the puritans, the puritanists, the victorians, the victorianists, the jansenists (also, in France) -- and the other new forms of heretic movements.

The English speaking mentalities on the morality, the laws of state.... are for me very difficult to understand. From Europe, those types of view are not very balanced, fair, reasonable. In my humble opinion, it is very odd, for a catholic french.


#17

[quote="fpt, post:15, topic:316887"]
I am a man:

The fact of seeing, of looking at and of admiring the physical beauty of a woman is not immoral and is not sinful, per se and by nature;

The fact of noting and of admiring the moral and spiritual beauty of a woman is not immoral and is not sinful, per se and by nature;

The fact of seeing, of looking at and of admiring the physical beauty of a woman and the fact of noting and of admiring the moral and spiritual beauty of a woman are not immoral and are not sinful, per se and by nature;

Woman is composed of a female body and of a female soul. Thus, in looking at the physical beauty of a woman, in the good way (no lust), I am doing a natural action, I am watching a beautiful creature of God, a feminine human person: the alterity and the complementarity of my own humanity;

The beauty of body of a woman and the beauty of the soul of a woman are gifts coming from God. ...

[/quote]

I agree with all that. However, the op asked what was the difference between staring at a beautiful woman and staring at an inanimate object, (the moon.) The difference is the inanimate object does not *have a human soul. There's looking at a woman as if she is a person, and there's looking at a woman as if she is just a thing without a soul. *And *there's looking vs. staring. The op asked about staring* at a woman as if she is a mere thing of beauty. Comparing a beautiful woman to the moon sounds very poetic and all, but the moon remains a object without a soul--and thus to compare a beautiful woman to the most beautiful moon does any beautiful woman an injustice.

(You French men seem to get away with a looking at a women a lot longer than men from other cultures, perhaps because something about your culture has taught you how to look at women in a non-creepy way, plus you have that great accent. ;) Trust me, most men who aren't from France or other Romance cultures can't pull it off successfully.)


#18

With the beauty of a woman -- concupiscence and even sin can enter into things.


#19

This can be helpful from Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers:

jimmyakin.com/2009/01/appreciating-beauty-vs-concupiscence.html


#20

[quote="yellow8yellowM, post:1, topic:316887"]
What is the difference between seeing a bright orange full moon on the horizon out of the corner of your eye, and stopping to admire it for a few minutes, and seeing a beautiful women walk by and stopping to admire her beauty for some the same amount of time.

Please assume you never undress her with your eyes or think lustful thoughts--it is pure admiration of beauty (feel free to challenge that this assumption is physically possible).

My conscience is telling me that there is a difference between admiring the beauty of a real woman in public and admiring a beautiful depiction of a woman in the form of a painting or statue. I am having a hard time coming up with words to describe what my conscience is telling me.

[/quote]

This can be helpful from Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers:

jimmyakin.com/2009/01/appreciating-beauty-vs-concupiscence.html


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