Beginning of the Church?


#1

What defining moment “began” the Christian Church? I’ve always considered it to be at Pentecost, though I very well could be wrong.

I’m also curious of another question: couldn’t it be argued that the Church was started with Abraham when he made the covenant with God?


#2

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

It is a church that was to be built, not one that was already established. I too believe that Pentecost was the ‘defining moment.’


#3

[quote=Aureole]What defining moment “began” the Christian Church? I’ve always considered it to be at Pentecost, though I very well could be wrong.

I’m also curious of another question: couldn’t it be argued that the Church was started with Abraham when he made the covenant with God?
[/quote]

No, because the Church is the New Jerusalem which came down from Heaven as talked about in the book of Revelation. The Old Covenant was for a select group of people: the Jews. The Church is for all mankind.


#4

[quote=Eileen T]“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

It is a church that was to be built, not one that was already established. I too believe that Pentecost was the ‘defining moment.’
[/quote]

Thanks, I get to look silly now for missing that somehow.

[quote=Semper Fi]No, because the Church is the New Jerusalem which came down from Heaven as talked about in the book of Revelation. The Old Covenant was for a select group of people: the Jews. The Church is for all mankind.
[/quote]

Thank you, that was rather helpful. I was just curious because Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, thus it’s more complete and builds upon the old covenant. The keyword, as Eileen T pointed out, is build.


#5

Pentecost is indeed considered the birth of the Church, however I am taking a course called Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins. It has been astonishing to me how the events of the Old Testament prefigure events and persons in the New Testament. The Catholic Church as established by Jesus is part of the final covenant between God and his people but several other covenants preceded it. Those who call the entire Bible “Salvation History” are quite correct because it becomes obvious that God has had a plan for the salvation of his people beginning with Adam and Eve. The Jews were used to implement that plan.


#6

I’ve heard that when the spear was thrust into Jesus side, and water and blood came out, that was the beginning of the Catholic Church.

Personally, I read the Psalms and think that David was the first Catholic!!!

Notworthy


#7

The Church views Pentecost as the birth of the Church on Earth, when the Holy Spirit spilled forth upon the apostles baptizing them with fire.

But one could argue the Church was prefigured all the way back in Genesis.

God removed a flesh-covered rib from Adam’s side and used it to form his bride, Eve. A lance pierced the side of Christ, the New Adam, while he was hanging from the Cross. Water spewed from Christ’s side, bringing forth living waters that would baptise His bride, the Church. That is, in the case of both the Old Adam and the New Adam, their brides* first* proceeded from wounds in thier sides.

Just as Eden was cleansed by waters that gushed forth from the Earth, the New Eden, the Kingdom of God, was baptised and cleansed with the living water that gushed forth from the side of Our Pierced and Beloved Savior.

Just as the Tree of Life fed Adam and Eve with Divine Life before the fall, so does the Bread of Life, the Holy Eucharist, the New Tree of life allow us, the Bride of Christ, to share in His Divine Life through Grace.

The Church was an “idea” of God’s all the way back to Genesis. It was being built, brick by brick, from the moment of Christ’s conception, and it took its adult form at Pentecost. The Kingdom of God will continue to age and grow on this Earth until the Bride of Christ reaches her final form at the Parousia, molded in the image of the Risen Christ.

I hope I got that right. HA! It’s late.

God Bless!


#8

[quote=GoldenArrow]The Church views Pentecost as the birth of the Church on Earth, when the Holy Spirit spilled forth upon the apostles baptizing them with fire.

But one could argue the Church was prefigured all the way back in Genesis.

God removed a flesh-covered rib from Adam’s side and used it to form his bride, Eve. A lance pierced the side of Christ, the New Adam, while he was hanging from the Cross. Water spewed from Christ’s side, bringing forth living waters that would baptise His bride, the Church. That is, in the case of both the Old Adam and the New Adam, their brides* first* proceeded from wounds in thier sides.

Just as Eden was cleansed by waters that gushed forth from the Earth, the New Eden, the Kingdom of God, was baptised and cleansed with the living water that gushed forth from the side of Our Pierced and Beloved Savior.

Just as the Tree of Life fed Adam and Eve with Divine Life before the fall, so does the Bread of Life, the Holy Eucharist, the New Tree of life allow us, the Bride of Christ, to share in His Divine Life through Grace.

The Church was an “idea” of God’s all the way back to Genesis. It was being built, brick by brick, from the moment of Christ’s conception, and it took its adult form at Pentecost. The Kingdom of God will continue to age and grow on this Earth until the Bride of Christ reaches her final form at the Parousia, molded in the image of the Risen Christ.

I hope I got that right. HA! It’s late.

God Bless!
[/quote]

Wow! Thank you for that! I’ve always known about “types” and prefiguring in the Bible, but I haven’t had the opportunity to hear so much about how the Church is prefigured in Genesis. I knew the Church was prefigured in the Old Testament, but I couldn’t go as far back as Genesis. Thank you so much!


#9

I came across something in my Haydock’s Commentary last night relating Noah’s Ark to the Catholic church. It was very interesting. I’ll type in the commentary tomorrow. I’m very tired. Long day at work.

God Bless!


#10

[quote=GoldenArrow]I came across something in my Haydock’s Commentary last night relating Noah’s Ark to the Catholic church. It was very interesting. I’ll type in the commentary tomorrow. I’m very tired. Long day at work.

God Bless!
[/quote]

Oh, thank you. That will be very helpful!


#11

Boy!! what goofy theology

allischalmers


#12

Nevermind.


#13

I’ll copy from the commentary of Haydock’s (1859) in reference Genesis Chapter 7, which describes the prefigurement of the Catholic Church in Noe’s ark, back then and near the Day of Judgment:

"In all the histories of past ages, there is nothing so terrible as this event. (The Flood) What became of all those myriads of human beings who perished on this occasion? We know not. Some have charitably supposed, that, although the far greater part perished everlastingly, a few who had been incredulous while Noe preached, opened their eyes at last, when it was too late to save their bodies, and by sincere repentance rescued their souls from the flames, and were consigned to do penance, for a time, in the other world. These heard the preaching of Jesus Christ, or believed in His redemption, while they were yet living, and so deserved to partake of His mercies, and joyfully beheld His sacred person when he came to visit them in the prison of Purgatory. 1 Peter 3: 19 He came and preached to those spirits that were in prison: which had been sometime incredulous when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is eight souls, were saved from drowning by water. Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saves you also, and etc. See F.S. Bellarmine, and etc. In these last words of Saint Peter, we may also notice that the ark was a figure of baptism, which is so necessary, that without its reception, or desire of it at least, no man can be saved. It is also a figure of the cross, and of the one true Church as the Fathers remark, with Saint Augustine de C.D. xv. i. M. and etc, Saint Gregory hom. 12 in Ezech. and etc.–This is so striking, that it deserves to be seriously considered. It was only one, though God could have ordered many smaller vessels to be made ready, perhaps with less inconvenience to Noe, that we might reflect, out of the Church the obstinate will surely perish. S. Jerome. ep. ad Dam.: In this ark all that were truly holy, and some imperfect, like Cham, were contained, clean beasts and unclean dwelt together, that we need not wonder if some Catholics will be a disgrace to their name. The ark had different partitions, to remind us of the various orders of Clergy and Laity within the Church, with one chief governor, the Pope, like Noe in the ark. It was strong, visible and etc and pitched all over with the durable cement bitumen, and riding triumphant amid the storms, the envy of all who were out of it, till at last it settled upon a rock. So the Church is built on a rock, against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail: she is not les obvious to the sincere seeker, than a city built upon the top of the highest mountain, and etc. We might take a retrospective view of the chief occurrences and personages of the former world; we should observe the same order of things from the beginning,–the conflict of virtue and vice, the preservation of the true faith and worship of God among a few chosen few souls, who preferred to be persecuted by worldlings, rather than to offend God. They contended earnestly for the faith once delivered to the Saints, to Adam and Eve, once innocent, and afterwards penitent. We behold original sin, and the promised remedy for mankind; while the rebel angels are abandoned, without redress. There was kept up a communion of saints: sacrifice to the one God was performed generally by the heads of families, who were priests in the law of nature. Even Cain, though a bad man, through hypocrisy, chose to offer sacrifice before he had quite broken off from the society of the faithful, and resolved to become the father of all excommunicated persons, and of all seducers. C iv. 16. He was admonished by God that he had free will, and might merit a reward by a different conduct. His sentence, as well as that pronounced upon Adam, and upon all mankind, before the flood, reminds us of the particular and general judgment; as the translation of Henoch sets before us the happy state of the blessed, and the immortality, of which it was an earnest. See Douay Bible, where the chief mysteries of faith are pointed out as the creed of the Antediluvians. Even the Blessed Trinity was insinuated, or shewn to them, at a distance, in various texts: the unity and indissolubility of marriage were clearly expressed; the true Church continued in Noe, while the chain of schismatics and heretics was broken, and Cain’s progeny destroyed …


#14

… [The text goes on describing the four ages: Golden, Silver, Brazen, and Iron and then concludes) … The *iron age of these two periods, may be dated from the persecution of Epiphanes against the Jews, when so many apostatized from the faith, and from that much more terrible persecution which will be raised against the Christians by Antichrist, the man of sin, (of which the former was the type) when the charity of many shall grow cold, and Christ will hardly find faith upon the Earth. To that age may be justly applied, those strong expressions of disapprobation which God made use of before the flood. G vi 3. 6. 12. He will punish the crimes of that age with a deluge of fire, and say, The end of all flesh is come before me, and etc. v. 13. Time shall be no longer. Apoc. x. 6."

From The Douay-Rheims Old Testament of the Holy Catholic Bible: with Comprehensive Catholic Commentary, compiled by Rev. Fr. Geo. Leo Haydock. pp. 22-23. 1859.

God Bless!

In my own view, Haydock’s commentary is reminiscent of the vision of St. John Bosco.


#15

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