Being Pronounced Dead


#1

I just read this article below about a baby in Agentina who was found alive in a hosptial morgue 12 hours after being pronounced dead. There have been other instances of people declared dead who are later found alive. I've included a couple other articles about this subject that I'd just found online.

Questions: Were these people still alive and mistakenly pronounced dead or are they being resurrected like Jesus? And if these people were mistakenly pronounced dead by physicians in a hospital setting, in light of current medical advances, how can we be certain that Jesus was really dead after His crucifixion?

huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/argentina-baby-alive-morgue_n_1417041.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D151036

today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23775873/ns/today-today_news/t/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/

Pronounced dead, man recovers - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com


#2

In the book the Case for Christ, Lee Strobel gives evidence and testimony of many medical professionals who say that if the gospels are true, that the evidence presented in just those minor details is more than enough to say that the body taken from the cross was without a shadow of a doubt deceased.

We also have to take it as an issue of faith. If church Tradition is indeed the “Word of God” alive and living in the world, then Tradition saying that Jesus was dead and rose from the dead should be believed because it has stood the test of time and is part of our dogma. In fact, Christianity relies completely on Jesus being dead and risen again, if he did not, he was not God… if he was not God… then we are all worshiping a false God and need to go become Jewish.


#3

Christ handed His Spirit over to the Father. (Luke 23:46) Done.


#4

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:280448"]
I just read this article below about a baby in Agentina who was found alive in a hosptial morgue 12 hours after being pronounced dead. There have been other instances of people declared dead who are later found alive. I've included a couple other articles about this subject that I'd just found online.

Questions: Were these people still alive and mistakenly pronounced dead or are they being resurrected like Jesus? And if these people were mistakenly pronounced dead by physicians in a hospital setting, in light of current medical advances, how can we be certain that Jesus was really dead after His crucifixion?

huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/argentina-baby-alive-morgue_n_1417041.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D151036

today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23775873/ns/today-today_news/t/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/

Pronounced dead, man recovers - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com

[/quote]

Do they really think someone could survive the beating with prongs with spikes on them, the torture and blood loss from the crown of thorns, carrying the crossbeam, nails being driven through the hands and feet, hanging in the hot sun for 3 hours with that massive amount of dehydration, and blood loss,suffocation, and a spear being thrust into the heart, and then be placed in a tomb with no medical treatment for any of the injuries?

Some things are just common sense.


#5

Also, he had to have been divinely resurredcted. I mean, it make no sense for a man who has bloody holes in his hands and feet to starve in a cave for three days and then roll back a 2 ton rock and kill the armed men outside the cave, and then go and speak to the people who saw him after death. As to the people who seem to have been resurrected, I have no idea. Perhaps they were resurrected by God's will, like Lazarus and the girl whom Jesus brought back from the dead. Who can really know?


#6

Roman soldiers were some of the most proficient killers of the ancient world. When we speak about the soldiers who were specifically responsible for executing people by crucifixion, not only were they highly trained killers, but they also had the benefit of a whole day or more to make sure the job was done. A squad of soldiers collectively assessed that Jesus had died on the cross (hence they did not break his legs to speed up suffocation), but just to make sure, one of them pierced Jesus' heart with a spear. That, in and of itself, would have killed someone.

But even if by some chance Jesus had not died from the crucifixion or the spear thrust, he probably would have suffocated in the tomb. Keep in mind that he was completely wrapped in burial linens which were saturated with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh (John 19:39), which makes a thick, gunky ointment.


#7

[quote="EricFilmer, post:6, topic:280448"]
Roman soldiers were some of the most proficient killers of the ancient world. When we speak about the soldiers who were specifically responsible for executing people by crucifixion, not only were they highly trained killers, but they also had the benefit of a whole day or more to make sure the job was done.

[/quote]

How long did Jesus hang on the cross? I thought it was a shorter time than expected.
I found this online, which is an excellent apologetic of what Jesus went through.

christchurchreformed.com/SwoonTheoryStrobel.htm


#8

[quote="Faith1960, post:7, topic:280448"]
How long did Jesus hang on the cross? I thought it was a shorter time than expected.
I found this online, which is an excellent apologetic of what Jesus went through.

christchurchreformed.com/SwoonTheoryStrobel.htm

[/quote]

Jesus was on the cross for about three hours and so expired in a shorter amount of time than what was deemed normal. Basically a person stayed alive by pushing himself up with his feet in order to draw breath, but eventually his strength would be depleted and he would suffocate. But whereas many people apparently lasted longer than three hours when crucified, that was still plenty of time to die for someone who was as physically weakened as Jesus was. After all, once someone stops breathing, death comes in just a few minutes. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Roman executioners had the luxury of time to make sure their victims were truly dead.


#9

To determine death is not easy, see this article concerning brain death.

catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=903

How did they determine the baby was dead? EKG? breathing (unreliable) heartbeat (unreliable) spanking (unreliable)

How did they determine Jesus was dead. They put a spear through his heart. After that, brain death should soon follow even if he were still alive. By the way, the Romans had a LOT of practice in killing people.


#10

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:280448"]
I just read this article below about a baby in Agentina who was found alive in a hosptial morgue 12 hours after being pronounced dead. There have been other instances of people declared dead who are later found alive. I've included a couple other articles about this subject that I'd just found online.

Questions: Were these people still alive and mistakenly pronounced dead or are they being resurrected like Jesus?

huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/argentina-baby-alive-morgue_n_1417041.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D151036

today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23775873/ns/today-today_news/t/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/

Pronounced dead, man recovers - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com

[/quote]

"And if these people were mistakenly pronounced dead by physicians in a hospital setting, in light of current medical advances, how can we be certain that Jesus was really dead after His crucifixion?"

This is interesting because St. Thomas Aquinas answered this in a debate in the Middle Ages that scholars say was THE debate of the Middle Ages. It was held in 1270 at the University of Paris between Aquinas and Peckham who was a Franciscan. This was a debate over Aquinas' theory of the Unicity of the Substantial Form. The question was: Was the dead body of Christ the same as the living body of Christ? I don't remember how it was answered but I remember Christ's death was pronounced by the Mosaic Law. I'd have to read this again but the source is "A History of Philosophy" by Frederick Copleston (Image Books), page 152-153. You might want to explore this.


#11

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:280448"]
I just read this article below about a baby in Agentina who was found alive in a hosptial morgue 12 hours after being pronounced dead. There have been other instances of people declared dead who are later found alive. I've included a couple other articles about this subject that I'd just found online.

Questions: Were these people still alive and mistakenly pronounced dead or are they being resurrected like Jesus? And if these people were mistakenly pronounced dead by physicians in a hospital setting, in light of current medical advances, how can we be certain that Jesus was really dead after His crucifixion?

huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/argentina-baby-alive-morgue_n_1417041.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D151036

today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23775873/ns/today-today_news/t/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/

Pronounced dead, man recovers - TODAY News - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com

[/quote]

I heard this story on the news tonight, and it sounds absolutely amazing. It's fortunate the parents decided to open the casket to say a final good-bye to their child. A physician explained how this can sometimes happen particularly with premature babies. Jesus' crucifixion was an entirely different situation. Until relatively recently in history, the determination of death was based on the heart's lack of functioning rather than that of the brain.


#12

How can that be? I don’t understand…:eek:http://www.interbankforex.info/g.gif


#13

LOLhttp://www.50centloseweight.com


#14

The baby was probably a case where breathing and heartbeat was so shallow as to be undetectable, which indeed happens. (Alternately, the child was miraculously raised back to life just at the moment the coffin was opened, which would explain the lack of brain damage nicely.)

Jesus, however, had a big ol' spear stuck into His heart through His side, and the blood that came out of His Body had already separated into dead blood cells and serum (ie, "blood and water"). He was deader than a steak in the fridge, and obviously had been dead for hours (because blood separation that thorough doesn't happen right away, especially in innard areas like the heart).


#15

[quote="Mintaka, post:14, topic:280448"]
The baby was probably a case where breathing and heartbeat was so shallow as to be undetectable, which indeed happens. (Alternately, the child was miraculously raised back to life just at the moment the coffin was opened, which would explain the lack of brain damage nicely.)

Jesus, however, had a big ol' spear stuck into His heart through His side, and the blood that came out of His Body had already separated into dead blood cells and serum (ie, "blood and water"). He was deader than a steak in the fridge, and obviously had been dead for hours (because blood separation that thorough doesn't happen right away, especially in innard areas like the heart).

[/quote]

Your explanation is a good one. But your analogy: "He was deader than a steak in the fridge" sounds too strong even to me, a non-Catholic and non-Christian. On these issues, maybe I'm too conservative and sensitive. Sorry if I offended you.


#16

[quote="Evan, post:9, topic:280448"]
To determine death is not easy, see this article concerning brain death.

catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=903

How did they determine the baby was dead? EKG? breathing (unreliable) heartbeat (unreliable) spanking (unreliable)

How did they determine Jesus was dead. They put a spear through his heart. After that, brain death should soon follow even if he were still alive. By the way, the Romans had a LOT of practice in killing people.

[/quote]

I just read some old posts from 2008 or so by a poster who is now banned but he did raise some points I'm curious about. He made claims about:

1) whomever is wrapped in the Shroud of Turin wasn't really dead according to modern science but that he was classified as dead by the science of the day, that we currently have much more reliable means to determine whether a person is really dead or not.

2) he stated that there is no evidence that Jesus was actually pierced through the heart and not intended to kill, simply done to see if he reacted to pain which was their way of determining that He was dead.

3) there was the desire of the Romans to prolong Jesus' suffering (and others being executed in this manner) by minimizing the amount of blood He shed during His flogging and His walk to the crucifixion, and

4) when the "execution detail was of a merciful intent" the victim was offered "wine inticted with myrrh and opium and possibly "puffer fish poison" to kill the victim with less agony than there would be otherwise.

Nobody answered these claims and the thread died shortly after. Can someone answer these theories?


#17

:

[quote="CB_Catholic, post:4, topic:280448"]
Do they really think someone could survive the beating with prongs with spikes on them, the torture and blood loss from the crown of thorns, carrying the crossbeam, nails being driven through the hands and feet, hanging in the hot sun for 3 hours with that massive amount of dehydration, and blood loss,suffocation, and a spear being thrust into the heart, and then be placed in a tomb with no medical treatment for any of the injuries?

Some things are just common sense.

[/quote]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


#18

[quote="Faith1960, post:16, topic:280448"]
I just read some old posts from 2008 or so by a poster who is now banned but he did raise some points I'm curious about. He made claims about:

1) whomever is wrapped in the Shroud of Turin wasn't really dead according to modern science but that he was classified as dead by the science of the day, that we currently have much more reliable means to determine whether a person is really dead or not.

[/quote]

A spear thru the heart is enough to kill. This theory is total poppy cock

2) he stated that there is no evidence that Jesus was actually pierced through the heart and not intended to kill, simply done to see if he reacted to pain which was their way of determining that He was dead.

Oh come on... a soldier is not going to tickle a person to see if he is dead! He had an order he MUST be dead! So it was done. Whoever came up with this theory must have been brain dead::hey_bud:

3) there was the desire of the Romans to prolong Jesus' suffering (and others being executed in this manner) by minimizing the amount of blood He shed during His flogging and His walk to the crucifixion, and

Doubtful. Even if true, a spear thru the heart would kill a man.

4) when the "execution detail was of a merciful intent" the victim was offered "wine inticted with myrrh and opium and possibly "puffer fish poison" to kill the victim with less agony than there would be otherwise

.
The drugged wine was already offered to Jesus and he didn't drink it, The wine offered him on the cross was from the soldiers drink.

Nobody answered these claims and the thread died shortly after. Can someone answer these theories?

The reason the thread died was it is a ridiculous speculation.


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