Hi guys, please help me come up with good arguments/refutations against this article. It has really shaken my believe in the Christian God as I used to believe strongly and rely on the testimony of the 12 apostles. Now, if that is shaken… I dont know what to believe in anymore.
Is your belief based solely upon this argument?
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit but you must cooperate with it. The Apostles present a living truth, a testimony, rather than a detailed history of all events in Christs life. They were radically transformed with the resurrection, regardless of what was documented.
Jimmy Akin does a good job explaining why there is very good reason to believe Jesus existed and started “something”.
If Jesus existed but didn’t rise from the dead, why would anyone follow His ideas?
the 37 were convinced Applewhite had seen the spaceship so as to do what they did whereas the followers of Jesus were convinced they saw what they saw and so did what they did (they had other reasons too)
Peter and all the rest were able to live the way they did due to Holy Spirit power and the Holy Spirit was sent by the risen and ascended Christ
Dagood implies that because the resurrection is an indirect factor in the deaths, there aren’t other factors as well, however that has never been claimed except by him
Scriptures as a whole imply a lot about the lives and relationships of those involved that Dagood hadn’t grasped. If catechists would roll out the Christian faith out to you more, and you had more people to share in it with, you would understand this information (the evidence we do have) more yourself. I remember when I was in your position
It would be good to get more idea of Dagood’s views and arguments on other issues and any part of his life story to get a bigger feel for how he ticks, possibly. A mixture of subtle distortion, carelessness and sheer deprivation of information has led to his bad logic, for whatever reason I haven’t checked out
Spurgeon68, Sickbot and Joe Lackey and a few others have written quite good comments
Believe is Shaken #1
I used to believe strongly and rely on the testimony of the 12 apostles. Now, if that is shaken… I dont know what to believe in anymore.
Quadratus writes (circa 123 A.D.) that in his day there were still persons
around who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus – prime witnesses. [Eusebius, *Church History, 4.3, 1.2; See Free From All Error, Fr W. Most, p 12]
** Who else, except the Christ, claimed to be God and proved it?**
The reality is that:
Fact 1: There was a man called Jesus.
Fact 2: He claimed to be a messenger sent from God.
Fact 3: He did enough to prove that He was such a messenger.
Fact 4: Crowds followed Jesus and He had an inner circle to whom he spoke much more.
Fact 5: He commissioned His followers to continue His teaching and founded His Church.
Fact 6: Jesus affirmed that God would protect that teaching.
Obviously, the Resurrection of Jesus is the key, as the existence and faith of the Catholic communities is not self-explanatory, but dependent on the fact of the spectacular historical Jesus and the fact of His Resurrection.
Why should Jesus take precedence over all others?
The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.
His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42;Jn11:47).Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].
The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.
No one can refute these facts of history. It is time to absorb the facts of history.
You, the OP, should read The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright. He puts all those doubts to rest.
Wright wrote the book when he realized so many people lived in doubt. He’s Anglican, but so close to Catholic, he might as well be.
Why did people follow Buddha or Muhammad or the founders of other religions when none of them rose from the dead?
Because these religions have enough truth in them to appeal to the God-given rational mind and spiritual need in all of us.
It is our Christian joy to proclaim the gospel to them.
My faith in Jesus Christ is not directly based on the testimony of the 12. Instead my faith in Jesus Christ is based on the 12s interpretation of OT prophecy, an interpretation that not only makes sense within the context of Jesus Christ, but also within the constraint that extraordinary people had tried to look into it but failed to understand. Suddenly these ordinary 12 developed an understanding of the OT above and beyond the extraordinary teachers of the day, and they can only develop such an understanding if they had an extraordinary rabbi with knowledge sufficient enough to be the Author. That Author, that rabbi, who handed extraordinary knowledge to ordinary people was Jesus Christ. It is that alone that debunks my disbelief.
Nor did they make the claim, nor was that claim made about them.
Many people today who do not think Jesus was divine or rose from the dead respect and follow some of Jesus’ ideas because they were good.
Rising from being dead isn’t a requirement.
People follow good ideas…when they are good.
Very good stuff and even better when listening to Kreeft on YouTube:
We can’t even prove Jesus existed. You can’t prove 100% definitively that you aren’t an alien. As has been said, faith is a gift, while a gift based on truths We can reject it or cooperate with/accept it.
I can understand James . My belief too has been tested, but not by Non-believers but by those who say they believe but miss the whole thrust of Jesus message. Jesus (the Jew from Galilee) talks about a shared faith, about the creation of God’s Kingdom, about inclusion not exclusion, about social and economic justice about love and forgiveness and an un-judgemental approach to our fellow man. How many follow his teachings ? Instead many quote Paul whose teaching often are at odds with this, dwelling as he does on personal salvation rather than the creation of the Kingdom. The whole thrust of Jesus teaching is to share salvation with others in creating God’s Kingdom on Earth. Christians spend too much time dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s of dogma and arguing the finer points of theology with on another; and the Church has too often been guilty of un-Christian behaviour in its economic dealings, its support for tyrants, its abuse of trust.
Time we got back the authentic voice of Jesus rather than the Pauline Christ.
Christians spend too much time dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s of dogma and arguing the finer points of theology with on another;
Christ Himself founded His own Church and mandated:
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
Thus those who deny the Christ and His Church should be opposed and presented with the facts.
the Church has too often been guilty of un-Christian behaviour in its economic dealings, its support for tyrants, its abuse of trust.
False. Certain members, but NOT Christ’s Church, in Her dogma and doctrine, nor is She supportive of abuse.
Time we got back the authentic voice of Jesus rather than the Pauline Christ.
All\ of the Gospels and Epistles have been authenticated by Christ through His Church, which is why those who pick and choose have gone astray.
Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom. The Pope is said to be the successor to Peter not to Saint Paul. As my old priest said to me years ago Converts are always the most dogmatic and unforgiving. It is the voice of Jesus and Peter we must listen to, then as now, as Jesus taught us.
The words of Jesus found in the Gospels are the key to the Kingdom. They above all else point the way to the fellowship of humanity under God. When I here dogmatic voices they speak in the way of the Pharisees. My own view of Jesus is as he was in history, Yesua ben Yusef a Galilean Jews, preaching the Gospel of Salvation through a love for others, inclusive not exclusive, calling us all to constructed the Kingdom of God in which the poor where lifted up, the hungry fed, the homeless house, the child protected and every person, Jew,Gentile,Catholic,Protestant,Muslim,Hindu,Buddhist, etc. even Atheists are all God’s creatures whom he loves.
I guess I would have trouble responding to the OP, because the argument put out by the linked article would not appear to me to be one that is all that faith-shaking in the first place.
Early Christians indeed were historically noted for being passionate to the death about their faith, and this was from the very beginning, including those who personally knew Jesus himself.
Documentation of historic events 2000 years ago is of a different standard than what would be desired today. but overall the evidence is fairly clear that this was the case. Instead of scatter and fleeing from persecution after the cruel, shameful and terrifying death of their leader, the group coalesced with determination and joy, and faced the continuing persecution as if it was nothing