Believe on the Lord and Be Baptized......and


#1

then the question is what is the difference between believing and being baptized. Now this thread is not about either.

I found this Protestant-Catholic Dialogue and listened to it in its entirety. There are 10 segments, each 10 minutes.

youtube.com/watch?v=7oEGAyLQ1BM

The motivating force behind this dialogue tells that she was born in Germany, raised Lutheran and then came to America and found Jesus.

A Lutheran came to America and found Jesus and then after reading the Bible had questions.

She wondered..How can the Bible teach Protestant and Catholic beliefs? This is the reason for the dialogue.

The speakers do a fair job however they each leave much for discussion.

Catholic Apologist, Vic Scaravilli, and Protestant Pastor, Doug Hallock meet to respectfully discuss two questions every Christian should consider. If you've wondered why there are so many denominations or practices among Christian churches, this Dialogue might interest you. The two presenters offer answers to two key questions:

  1. Where does ultimate authority reside regarding the beliefs, worship, and practice of the Christian faith?

  2. By what criteria should a Christian judge a local congregation, church, or ministry group to be faithful to Christ and His teachings since they often contradict one another in doctrine and practice?

Since the discussants leave room for discussion I thought it would be interesting to ask all to participate and fill in the gaps, 10 minutes at a time. Since I started this thread and to keep things on track I ask that discussion on each segment continue until such time that the next segment is posted.

I will do my best to observe and carry the discussion forward introducing the next segment with my thoughts and ask yours.

You will find it interesting that towards the end of the first video that the Protestant discusser hands out teaching material or extra-biblical material.

Notice that the Protestant declares brotherhood based on beliefs. This is an overwhelming theme as to who is part of the “Christian Church” defined by those that believe.

So, here in this post I suggest not answering someone elses post if possible however I know from time to time that will happen. I suggest that posting be done as if in response to something the speaker said and you feel needs elaboration, explanation, or just your :twocents:

I already put my two cents in for this segment. This may be interesting, it may be boring, it may be who knows.....just thought I would try something new.

Cmon down....


#2

Im going to try for funsies, forgive me , im no theologian or apologetic , but practice makes perfect right.. :D

*1. Where does ultimate authority reside regarding the beliefs, worship, and practice of the Christian faith?
*

The ultimate authority is God, who came to us through Jesus and died for our sins, he started his Church with Peter - with Tradition, the Bible and the Magisterium (church teachings) guided by the Pope through the succession of Peter is the Ultimate authority regarding Beliefs, worship and practices

so God is the boss but he left us help, in the universal church he started

*2. By what criteria should a Christian judge a local congregation, church, or ministry group to be faithful to Christ and His teachings since they often contradict one another in doctrine and practice?
*

this one is hard , but here I go

They should judge it by , its Teachings, History , evidence , correspondence with the bible

The Catholic Church functions today like the church functioned back in the book of acts, with much documented history, and preservation, and documentation - The Catholic Church falls under this category the most - and it is because it is the one true Church

howd I do?


#3

[quote="mab23, post:2, topic:294858"]
Im going to try for funsies, forgive me , im no theologian or apologetic , but practice makes perfect right.. :D

*1. Where does ultimate authority reside regarding the beliefs, worship, and practice of the Christian faith?
*

The ultimate authority is God, who came to us through Jesus and died for our sins, he started his Church with Peter - with Tradition, the Bible and the Magisterium (church teachings) guided by the Pope through the succession of Peter is the Ultimate authority regarding Beliefs, worship and practices

so God is the boss but he left us help, in the universal church he started

*2. By what criteria should a Christian judge a local congregation, church, or ministry group to be faithful to Christ and His teachings since they often contradict one another in doctrine and practice?
*

this one is hard , but here I go

They should judge it by , its Teachings, History , evidence , correspondence with the bible

The Catholic Church functions today like the church functioned back in the book of acts, with much documented history, and preservation, and documentation - The Catholic Church falls under this category the most - and it is because it is the one true Church

howd I do?

[/quote]

Mab,

You did well. Did you watch the 10 minute video?


#4

oh no i didn't ill do that

:eek:


#5

I have watched videos - first 3 videos


#6

[quote="mab23, post:2, topic:294858"]
Im going to try for funsies, forgive me , im no theologian or apologetic , but practice makes perfect right.. :D

*1. Where does ultimate authority reside regarding the beliefs, worship, and practice of the Christian faith?
*

The ultimate authority is God, who came to us through Jesus and died for our sins, he started his Church with Peter - with Tradition, the Bible and the Magisterium (church teachings) guided by the Pope through the succession of Peter is the Ultimate authority regarding Beliefs, worship and practices

so God is the boss but he left us help, in the universal church he started

ULTIMATE AUTHORITY COMES FORM THE VERBAL AND WRITTEN APOSTOLIC TRADITION WHICH IS NOT SEPARATE BUT ONE IN THE SAME. THE CHURCH FATHERS ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE BIBLE--THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY THE CHURCH NOT FOR THE CHURCH. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH. OUR LORD STARTED HIS CHURCH WITH HIS APOSTLES, THAT TRADITION WAS HANDED DOWN TO THE EPISKAPOS (BISHOPS). FOR 400 YEARS THE CHURCH DID NOT EVEN HAVE A BIBLE? I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ONE WOULD WANT TO SEPARATE ALL THIS IT IS AN APOSTOLIC TRADITION THAT IS UNBROKEN AND FOREVER PROTECTED FROM HERESY (THE GATES OF HADES SHALL NOT PREVAIL). PROTESTANTS ARE HERETICS AT BEST AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH, MANY ARE APOSTATES BECAUSE THEY HAVE ABANDONED FUNDAMENTAL TRADITIONS AS TAUGHT BY THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH, E.G., THE MOST HOLY TRINITY.

*2. By what criteria should a Christian judge a local congregation, church, or ministry group to be faithful to Christ and His teachings since they often contradict one another in doctrine and practice?
*

this one is hard , but here I go

They should judge it by , its Teachings, History , evidence , correspondence with the bible

The Catholic Church functions today like the church functioned back in the book of acts, with much documented history, and preservation, and documentation - The Catholic Church falls under this category the most - and it is because it is the one true Church

IF ONE FOLLOWS APOSTOLIC TRADITION THAN THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION. AGAIN PROTESTANTS ARE HERETICS AND PARTICIPATION IN EUCUMENISM IN MY OPINION TO TOLERATING AND THUS CONDONING, THUS ONE IS GUILTY OF THE HERESY OF OUR TIME. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY THAT THE PRODS WILL BE ABLE TO SAVE THEIR SOUL AND THAT, BY CATHOLIC DOGMA, IS TO HUMBLY CONFESS THEIR ERROR AND TO COME INTO COMMUNION WITH THE CHURCH. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I AM ORTHODOX! WE BELIEVE AND PRACTICE THE APOSTOLIC TRADTION. REMEMBER WHEN SPEAKING TO YOUR PROTESTANT BUDDYS THE RC DOGMA THAT THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH. AS AN OLD CALENDERIST WE ARE UNWILLING TO BEND, THE TRUTH IS THE SAME TODAY AS IT WAS 100 YEARS AGO OR EVEN 1000 YEARS AGO. TALKS BETWEEN PRODS AND RC ONLY CONFIRM THAT THERE IS A HUGE HERESY AND THAT HERESY IS ECUMENISM!:thumbsup:

howd I do?

[/quote]


#7

Prod sounds like a derogatory term. Protestant is the correct form.

And I used to be one.


#8

I apologize that I have not been able to watch the video yet - but would like to offer my input as this is something dear to my heart and was important to my own journey.

**
1. Where does ultimate authority reside regarding the beliefs, worship, and practice of the Christian faith?**

According to the Bible (the common denominator of all Christian faiths) it is the Church!!! Scripture is very clear on this matter.

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Tim 3:15)
The Church has authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 16:17-19) (Mt 18:15-18)
The Church settles arguments between distant church communities in a wonderful example of the instructions given in Mt 18: 15-18...(Acts 15)
The Church is the vehicle by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world. (Eph 3:8-12)
Christ and the Apostles exhort the faithful to unity...to be of one mind
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

All of these calls to unity, along with the instructions in the Gospel of Matthew and the example in Acts as well as Paul's presenting his teachings to Peter and others to assure they are correct, the Church being the Pillar etc.....All point clearly to doctrinal unity within a visible and authoritative Church.

Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura) adherents can offer nothing in support of the (evangelical?) protestant view of "church" and "authority" that comes anywhere close to this preponderance of evidence for the RC/EO "Model" of Church structure.

I say this with confidence because I have repeatedly asked protestant apologists to counter this evidence with "equally clear and compelling" evidence for what I call the "Protestant model" of locally independent church communities based on SS.
They just simply cannot do it...

*2. By what criteria should a Christian judge a local congregation, church, or ministry group to be faithful to Christ and His teachings since they often contradict one another in doctrine and practice? *

To me the only answer to this is, how well do they adhere to the biblical truths expressed to question one above. To deny the centrality and authority and universality of the visible Church is to deny Scripture itself - and how can one claim to be "bible based" and not be Catholic (Or Orthodox)??

Peace
James


#9

[quote="Patrick_GOC, post:6, topic:294858"]

[/quote]

Patrick,

The Church you and I belong to says that Protestants are not heretics. Those in the 16th century would be whom you speak of. Today those that accept a teaching they no little or nothing about would be considered separated brethren. Those baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian. Watch the video.


#10

[quote="Miriam1947, post:7, topic:294858"]
Prod sounds like a derogatory term. Protestant is the correct form.

And I used to be one.

[/quote]

Miriam,

I would hope that your input will add to the discussion as you will view both presentations differently than I did.


#11

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:294858"]
then the question is what is the difference between believing and being baptized. Now this thread is not about either.

I found this Protestant-Catholic Dialogue and listened to it in its entirety. There are 10 segments, each 10 minutes.

youtube.com/watch?v=7oEGAyLQ1BM

The motivating force behind this dialogue tells that she was born in Germany, raised Lutheran and then came to America and found Jesus.

A Lutheran came to America and found Jesus and then after reading the Bible had questions.

She wondered..How can the Bible teach Protestant and Catholic beliefs? This is the reason for the dialogue.

The speakers do a fair job however they each leave much for discussion.

Catholic Apologist, Vic Scaravilli, and Protestant Pastor, Doug Hallock meet to respectfully discuss two questions every Christian should consider. If you've wondered why there are so many denominations or practices among Christian churches, this Dialogue might interest you. The two presenters offer answers to two key questions:

Since the discussants leave room for discussion I thought it would be interesting to ask all to participate and fill in the gaps, 10 minutes at a time. Since I started this thread and to keep things on track I ask that discussion on each segment continue until such time that the next segment is posted.

I will do my best to observe and carry the discussion forward introducing the next segment with my thoughts and ask yours.

You will find it interesting that towards the end of the first video that the Protestant discusser hands out teaching material or extra-biblical material.

Notice that the Protestant declares brotherhood based on beliefs. This is an overwhelming theme as to who is part of the “Christian Church” defined by those that believe.

So, here in this post I suggest not answering someone elses post if possible however I know from time to time that will happen. I suggest that posting be done as if in response to something the speaker said and you feel needs elaboration, explanation, or just your :twocents:

I already put my two cents in for this segment. This may be interesting, it may be boring, it may be who knows.....just thought I would try something new.

Cmon down....

[/quote]

I finished through the first question - about authority, and found myself leaning more toward the than the Catholic speaker, based on what he didn't say. No mention of the supremacy of Peter. And apostolic succession is implied.

You are right that the protestant speaker (not sure what communion he is a part of), ends the session saying that if anyone gets between you and the scripture, you run the risk of having it fuzzied up. He then proceeds to provide literature for his POV. :confused:

So, I find myself confirmed to a degree on my understanding of the Lutheran position - scripture is the final norm, but Tradition plays an important, yet secondary role in the teachings of the Church.

Jon


#12

[quote="JonNC, post:11, topic:294858"]
I finished through the first question - about authority, and found myself leaning more toward the than the Catholic speaker, based on what he didn't say. No mention of the supremacy of Peter. And apostolic succession is implied.

You are right that the protestant speaker (not sure what communion he is a part of), ends the session saying that if anyone gets between you and the scripture, you run the risk of having it fuzzied up. He then proceeds to provide literature for his POV. :confused:

So, I find myself confirmed to a degree on my understanding of the Lutheran position - scripture is the final norm, but Tradition plays an important, yet secondary role in the teachings of the Church.

Jon

[/quote]

Jon,

Thank for your input. The later videos get into the succession and you will hear the Protestant speaker refer to the "Church" as believers, pointing out that there are "believers" that are Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran....etc.


#13

[quote="JonNC, post:11, topic:294858"]
I finished through the first question - about authority, and found myself leaning more toward the than the Catholic speaker, based on what he didn't say. No mention of the supremacy of Peter. And apostolic succession is implied.

You are right that the protestant speaker (not sure what communion he is a part of), ends the session saying that if anyone gets between you and the scripture, you run the risk of having it fuzzied up. He then proceeds to provide literature for his POV. :confused:

So, I find myself confirmed to a degree on my understanding of the Lutheran position - scripture is the final norm, but Tradition plays an important, yet secondary role in the teachings of the Church.

Jon

[/quote]

Jon,

I forgot to ask your input on the female speaker. She says she was Lutheran in Germany and found Jesus by reading the Bible after coming to America. This leads to many questions. I do not know what the State Religion of Germany is like compared to other Lutherans. I wonder what this woman would say if asked, how could you find Jesus prior to the United States being formed? I would ask, don't Lutherans read the Bible too and why couldn't you find Jesus there?


#14

[quote="CopticChristian, post:13, topic:294858"]
Jon,

I forgot to ask your input on the female speaker. She says she was Lutheran in Germany and found Jesus by reading the Bible after coming to America. This leads to many questions. I do not know what the State Religion of Germany is like compared to other Lutherans. I wonder what this woman would say if asked, how could you find Jesus prior to the United States being formed? I would ask, don't Lutherans read the Bible too and why couldn't you find Jesus there?

[/quote]

Well, as soon as she started using the phrases you mentioned, I knew she wasn't a Lutheran (anymore). Its just not how we talk. Luherans are in 2 camps, from what I know, in Germany; the state Church which is the result of the (forced) merger of Lutheran and Reformed, and an independent Lutheran community. She doesn't say which she was raised in. I would have asked similar question as you do, however, just as the wind, the Spirit moves sinners where He will, and I'm happy for her. Of course, what she'd probably deny is that that Lutheran baptism she probably received as an infant was the start of her faith.

Jon


#15

[quote="CopticChristian, post:9, topic:294858"]
Patrick,

The Church you and I belong to says that Protestants are not heretics. Those in the 16th century would be whom you speak of. Today those that accept a teaching they no little or nothing about would be considered separated brethren. Those baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian. Watch the video.

[/quote]

Interesting so you are saying that Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura is now a part of Orthodox teaching? hmm...If you do not follow the Apostolic tradition you simply are a heretic and if you abandon the faith by trying to mix non-christian thoughts with you so-called Christian beliefs you are an apostate. I belong to the Genuine Orthodox Church and to my knowledge protestants as well as RC are heretical due to the additions and now we have a bishop in San Franscico making statements that he agrees with homosexual unions>>>IS THAT ORTHODOX?


#16

[quote="Miriam1947, post:7, topic:294858"]
Prod sounds like a derogatory term. Protestant is the correct form.

And I used to be one.

[/quote]

Prod is the word I use. If you don't care for the term in charity I apologize but it is simply a shortening such as the acryonm RC. Is that offensive too? quit being so sensative--PC in Christianity, oh my???


#17

[quote="Patrick_GOC, post:16, topic:294858"]
Prod is the word I use. If you don't care for the term in charity I apologize but it is simply a shortening such as the acryonm RC. Is that offensive too? quit being so sensative--PC in Christianity, oh my???

[/quote]

I uses to be a Prod too. and I am not offended - lol

I am offended though by people who fight for Abortion and call it woman's rights

but I digress


#18

[quote="Patrick_GOC, post:16, topic:294858"]
Prod is the word I use. If you don't care for the term in charity I apologize but it is simply a shortening such as the acryonm RC. Is that offensive too? quit being so sensative--PC in Christianity, oh my???

[/quote]

Some protestants might consider it offensive more along the lines of "Papist" or "Romish". I find those terms offensive so I don't use them. "Prot" less so. Heck, I don't even use the term Roman Catholic because some dislike it. Its a matter of manners. But the bigger issue is I think the moderators don't care for these kinds of terms.

Jon


#19

[quote="Patrick_GOC, post:15, topic:294858"]
Interesting so you are saying that Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura is now a part of Orthodox teaching? hmm...If you do not follow the Apostolic tradition you simply are a heretic and if you abandon the faith by trying to mix non-christian thoughts with you so-called Christian beliefs you are an apostate. I belong to the Genuine Orthodox Church and to my knowledge protestants as well as RC are heretical due to the additions and now we have a bishop in San Franscico making statements that he agrees with homosexual unions>>>IS THAT ORTHODOX?

[/quote]

Patrick,

I believe that what I am saying is consistent with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

Protestantism is heresy. Protestants of 1600 were heretics. Protestants of today are not heretics.

The same would be true for Orthodox. Orthodox from my side of the fence in 1000 were schismatics. Orthodox of today are not schismatics since they were born into the body of the Church that schismed however not making them schismatic.

You may see from your side of the fence as Orthodoxy and all else heresy. How is that working for you towards unity, that they may all be one?


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