Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

As encouraged by a Baha’i friend from this forum to start this thread, I noticed that there are some variations in our beliefs in regards to Jesus based on biblical sources. This thread was started to help us to better understand why we believe what we believe in regards to the True Jesus.

What do you believe?
Do you believe He was the Messiah?
Do you believe He is God the Son?
Do you believe that He was crucified & died for our sins?
Do you believe that He resurrected bodily & ascended into heaven?

As a start, I shall profess my faith:
*
The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy,
catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.*

GuyNextDoor

Good luck getting a straight answer

Lets hope we do, since this thread is started as requested by him lol

You say these beliefs about Jesys are from “Biblical sources”. Can you please provide the Biblical source for Jesus being Messiah, Jesus being God, Jesus resurrecting bodily?

Thanks.

(I remind you that I am here to read your responses to Biblical passages I will provide in response)

Also I am not happy with the thread title. This is not a competition. I certainly am not here to win anything.

Consider yourself already the winner. Your “heresy” stamp in another thread gave us all the insights we needed :slight_smile:

So you win. Help me to understand.

Remove the “versus” component to the title if you can and we can hopefully maintain our dignity and nobility, the way God intended for us to act.

Thankyou

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I didn’t request this thread. I offered to contribute if you wished to start one.

Either way. I’m happy if we can retain respect and love and not take dissection of beliefs personally without resorting to personal remarks :slight_smile:

.

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Can you also tell me please what does:

“God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,”

mean?

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I wish I can change the title to make you feel better Servant but I am not sure I know how, if I can change it at all. However, the title was not meant to be a competition, but rather a friendly dialogue in regards to who Christ really is. I apologize in advance if it upsets you.

And yes you did offer to contribute, I did phrase it wrongly here and thus I apologize for that too if it bothers you. Anyone is free to contribute here too.

Yes lets. :slight_smile:

To answer your three requests to see the biblical sources for the following, I will attempt to provide some basic insights for them and see where it leads as a start:

Jesus being the Messiah

The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” - John 4:25-26

Jesus being God

Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. - Isaiah 44:6
+
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” - Revelation 1:17-18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1
+
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.” - John 8:58

"I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” - John 10:30-33

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” - John 14:6

Resurrection of Jesus

From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” - Matthew 16:21-22

As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” - Matthew 17:9

*But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”* John 20:24-29

There are more passages but lets stick with these for now, we may reference back to them in abit I suspect.

On what biblical grounds would you not believe that Jesus is not the Messiah, God or that He was resurrected bodily, Servant? I merely assumed that because you asked for the biblical sources of those questions you posed. What do you believe? Do Baha’i believe in the inerrancy of the Bible?

GuyNextDoor

for a fruitful discussion we should start by acknowledging that for Roman Catholics all we know about God and Jesus Christ is not limited to what is disclosed in ANY sacred texts, whether they are the bible, the Koran, the hindu writings, the Buddhist writings or anyone else’s writings.

in addition to the worlds sacred texts, the RC the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the RCC, apostolic tradition, liturgical traditions, Sacred Tradition, the writings of the Early Fathers and all of the other Doctors and saints of the RCC down through history to assist and guide in growing in wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the divine mysteries.

since this forum lends itself to intellectual discussions of objective reality, it is difficult to understand how someone not even remotely grounded in the additional aspects, those aspects that are available in addition to what is found in the world’s sacred religious texts, that I listed above can add much of substance to a discussion that for, at least the RCs, involve a large amount of knowledge, wisdom and understanding not found in those texts. in particular, lacking the guidance of the Holy Spirit precludes sound development of doctrines related to the divine mysteries.

this is not meant to diminish the good will, fervor and devotion to the truth of those without the additional factors available to the RC. it is simply meant to acknowledge that unless a person enters in to the discussion with a good foundation of all of the factors most of the discussion time will be spent trying to provide information to those without it. also, unless those without the information can acknowledge their ignorance of the additional information that has helped RCs to develop their knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the divine mysteries.

those without the additional information are unlikely to even ask pertinent and insightful questions.

it is a fact that the vast majority of RCs do not possess the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to participate in a fruitful, intellectual discussion of the divine mysteries.

this is the reason faith in Jesus Christ is a pre-requisite for salvation. our Creator did not make our salvation dependent upon our intellectual abilities and efforts. all who place their faith in Jesus Christ and try to live accordingly have a divinely provided hope of salvation.

without placing one’s faith in Jesus Christ, a person is left with out divine guidance.

we can evaluate the words of others as regards the divine mysteries by comparing them to the words of Jesus Christ as understood by those to whom Jesus gave the responsibility for making the Good News available to all.

Hello there. There is very little in life that upsets me. I simply pointed these things out so we can have an amicable foundation. My aim is to have dialogue, not competition, no intentional sneakiness, not attempts to embarrass or to “bust” anyone or catch you out. The reason I mention these things is to elevate posters here to a higher level of thinking, to be mindful of how things light be perceived etc. No need to apologize. I will assuredly learn plenty from you here :slight_smile:

And yes you did offer to contribute, I did phrase it wrongly here and thus I apologize for that too if it bothers you. Anyone is free to contribute here too.

Again, doesn’t bother me, but I sensed I needed to clarify the source of comedy between you and dolphinlove :slight_smile:

To answer your three requests to see the biblical sources for the following, I will attempt to provide some basic insights for them and see where it leads as a start:

Jesus being the Messiah

The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” - John 4:25-26

The Baha’i Faith has no problems with and fully endorses the fact that Jesus was the Messiah. We can move on from this, I think the two religions are on the same page :slight_smile:

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Sounds good to me, at least we have some common ground here to work from. Perhaps you would like to clarify a little on what Baha’i do not believe about Jesus which Christians believe.

To my best knowledge from the previous threads, Baha’i do not believe that Jesus is God and that He did not resurrect from the dead bodily, which is the core of Christian beliefs. I am not quite sure what other beliefs about Jesus which Baha’is have which differs from the Christian beliefs.

Would you care to enlighten us on the differences? Do Baha’i also believe in the inerrancy of the Bible?

GuyNextDoor

Jesus being God

Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. - Isaiah 44:6
+
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” - Revelation 1:17-18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1
+
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.” - John 8:58

"I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” - John 10:30-33

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” - John 14:6

I am happy with the verses you put forward, and indeed it is a strong argument for Jesus being God.

Would you mind now explaining these verses (so that we be not accused of placing them into Invisibilia) please? :slight_smile:

"If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. " John 14:28

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." Matt 24:36

There are several others, but we can stick to these two for now.

In light of what you are thinking in response here, I would like you to know that I take an interest in reading about early Christianity. Can you explain the following passage from Justin Martyr please?

"And when we say also that the Word,
who is the first-born of God
, was produced without sexual union,
and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified. and rose
again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from
what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."

(emphasis mine)

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xxi.html

I also have something from St Basil which I would appreciate your understanding please?

8. Since then, as says the Lord in the Gospels, John 14:9 he that has seen the Son sees the Father also; on this account he says that the Only-begotten is the express image of His Father’s person. That this may be made still plainer I will quote also other passages of the apostle in which he calls the Son “the image of the invisible God,” Colossians 1:15 and again “image of His goodness;” not because the image differs from the Archetype according to the definition of indivisibility and goodness, but that it may be shown that it is the same as the prototype, even though it be different. For the idea of the image would be lost were it not to preserve throughout the plain and invariable likeness. He therefore that has perception of the beauty of the image is made perceptive of the Archetype. So he, who has, as it were mental apprehension of the form of the Son, prints the express image of the Father’s hypostasis, beholding the latter in the former, not beholding in the reflection the unbegotten being of the Father (for thus there would be complete identity and no distinction), but gazing at the unbegotten beauty in the Begotten. Just as he who in a polished mirror beholds the reflection of the form as plain knowledge of the represented face, so he, who has knowledge of the Son, through his knowledge of the Son receives in his heart the express image of the Father’s Person. For all things that are the Father’s are beheld in the Son, and all things that are the Son’s are the Father’s; because the whole Son is in the Father and has all the Father in Himself. Thus the hypostasis of the Son becomes as it were form and face of the knowledge of the Father, and the hypostasis of the Father is known in the form of the Son, while the proper quality which is contemplated therein remains for the plain distinction of the hypostases.

newadvent.org/fathers/3202038.htm

Please now compare this passage from St. Basil with this extract from the Baha’i Writings explaining the deeper meanings of the Trinity:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html

cont. below)

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(cont.)

…and also this:

*As to the Holy Manifestations of God, They are the focal points where the signs, tokens and perfections of that sacred, pre-existent Reality appear in all their splendour. They are an eternal grace, a heavenly glory, and on Them dependeth the everlasting life of humankind. To illustrate: the Sun of Truth dwelleth in a sky to which no soul hath any access, and which no mind can reach, and He is far beyond the comprehension of all creatures. Yet the Holy Manifestations of God are even as a looking-glass, burnished and without stain, which gathereth streams of light out of that Sun, and then scattereth the glory over the rest of creation. In that polished surface, the Sun with all Its majesty standeth clearly revealed. Thus, should the mirrored Sun proclaim, ‘I am the Sun!’ this is but truth; and should It cry, ‘I am not the Sun!’ this is the truth as well. And although the Day-Star, with all Its glory, Its beauty, Its perfections, be clearly visible in that mirror without stain, still It hath not come down from Its own lofty station in the realms above, It hath not made Its way into the mirror; rather doth It continue to abide, as It will forever, in the supernal heights of Its own holiness.

And further, all the earth’s creatures require the bounty of the sun, for their very existence is dependent upon solar light and heat. Should they be deprived of the sun, they would be wiped out. This is the being with God, as referred to in the Holy Books: man must be with his Lord.

It is clear, then, that the essential reality of God is revealed in His perfections; and the sun, with its perfections, reflected in a mirror, is a visible thing, an entity clearly expressing the bounty of God.
*
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-22.html

Thankyou for reading :slight_smile:

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The True Jesus - A big task to determine, or is it? :wink:

Could it not be simple, God is Pure Love

Pure Love knows no Division.

Thus the Pure Word Which flows from this Love also knows no Division.

If Division is caused by Ones Understanding of the Word then the path is Lost.

It is for us to know our Hearts, Our Hearts must embrace all mankind with the Love God Gives to all.

Romans 12:4
Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,

**
Romans 6:5
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.**

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Colossians 3:13-14
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Psalm 133:1
How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!

God Bless and Regards Tony

With the resurrection, I would ask you to remove from Invisibilia (I like this place lol) the entirety of the works of Paul, which talks a vast amount of times about resurrection, but not once does he refer to it as a physical bodily resurrection. It is ALWAYS a spiritual resurrection. There are too many quotes to list here.

May I ask you. Do you believe that Jesus ascended to a physical heaven upon Ascension?

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In his letter dated 28 March 1941 addressed to the believers throughout the West, Shoghi Effendi emphasizes:

*** As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended…***…

("The Promised Day is Come", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1980); p. 109)

:slight_smile:

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Bahai’s believe in contradictions so don’t expect a real answer. They will deny that we have a different Jesus and yet at the same time confess we have a different Jesus. They will say we are not wrong as Christians but that we are wrong in our Christian beliefs. There is no reasoning with the purely mystical and the bahais have proved that countless times of this forum.

They will for instance say they agree with the Nicene creed but what they will do is reinterpret every word in it and coming to it with that understanding say “Yes we agree!”

Even in response to this they will smile and lie.

We are bombarded with statements like these.

We are told we lie. Then when asked where this was the case, no response is given.
We are told that Baha’is did this and that. When we ask where this happened? No response is given

We have seen our opposers come and go, and yet still we have no evidence for these accusations.

Please show us where we have said that we agree with the Nicene Creed.

I really am not sure what the Nicene Creed means, what is a God from God, true God from true God. How can I agree with something I cannot understand?

:rolleyes:
(we have seen and read your stuff again and again Ignatian, but all you do is just make accusations for the sake of making accusations, no real substance to your posts when you are just attacking Baha’is for the sake of attacking, an example of which is seen in your post above…)

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You are told you lie because you do lie when you have to reinterpret our words for us for the sake of not offending us.

If I ask you, Is Jesus God. You will answer yes.

If I ask a bahai who doesn’t have any standing in this discussion they will answer no.(and indeed I have asked bahais elsewhere on the internet who actually understood my question).

The way you get around saying yes to the question is not to understand the way I use the term God, but simply to replace what I mean by “God” with what you mean by “God,” meaning a god, meaning a manifestation who is not the true God. You will appeal to one statement by your prophet to justify terming the manifestations God, but you know what you mean by that against what we mean by it.

I call this deceptive.

But if you deny the nicene creed, which affirms Jesus is God in the fullest sense. Here’s where you have to either redefine the word God and pretend to agree with us or admit that Jesus is not God. If you then deny this creed then you deny we have the same God. But as a bahai you cannot do that because you are forced to believe we all have the same God, despite the religion, or rather especially the Abraham religions. You will eventually be forced to reinterpret it.

Go on, tell me Jesus is God in the ultimate sense, that he is the creator and sustainer of all the universe, that he is worthy of worship. Greater than your prophet or Muhammad or Moses. That you are to be judged by him when everything is said and done. You will not say it because you cannot and do not believe in that.

:tsktsk: Take care to speak in charity.

Ask any Baha’i if we believe that Jesus, epistelogically, is God. They will say yes

Ask any Baha’i if we believe that Jesus, ontologically, is God. Theyw ill say no.

Ignatian. I refer you to ALLLLLLLLLLL the threads where we have explained to you these things before.

I cannot dialogue with you again about this for the 4 milliionth time.

I’m not on this thread to argue. The tone is so far very friendly here. Why spoil it with your accusations of deception with NOTHING to back it up with?

GuyNextDoor is so far being very Catholic with his approach, and I honour him for that, and I pray I can follow suit.

Please can you also follow suit. Calling people liars without any evidence is basically against forum rules.

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