Bible Code


#1

I wondered if anyone in this Forum was familiar with the Bible Code, and the mathematicians who work on it. I've been on their website a few times, and there is some incredible stuff there. Their work is mathematical, instead of religious. However, as a spiritual person who believes in God, I have found my faith strengthened by their findings.

I'll provide a clumsy explanation if I attempt it, so perhaps anyone who is interested ought to look it up and see the official explanation! Essentially: each Hebrew letter corresponds to a number. If one strings each letter in the Bible together, omitting all stops, breaks, and punctuation of any kind, a long sequence of numbers emerges. The mathematicians take these numbers, and attempt to discern any pattern-recognition in them. They do so by skipping letters. Let's say they try to take each 50th letter in a row. If every 50th letter, when strung together, spells out a message, they say this is a message that was embedded in the text, or is "Bible Code." To this point, their approach has not advanced to the point where they can find what is hidden prior to having any specific idea in mind. All they're able to do, is search for known events.

For instance: they have searched for strings of information about Obama, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, Hurricane Katrina, etc. -- and have found long strings of phrasing (embedded within the original text) that state the names, events, and places of these occurrences. In some cases, messages are then added, such as judgments that thus pertain, or advice, in some cases.

They do not hold a theory for how this is possible. They approach it mathematically.

As a believer in God, I have wondered about the following theory: whether the Bible has both the literal, surface meanings, and simultaneously has embedded within its text, prophetic messages that illustrate that all is known prior to its occurrence.

If this were the case, it would serve to strengthen my belief in God. We often say that God is omniscient, so it ought not be a trying exercise to entertain the notion that He can foresee all events. Therefore, this would illustrate that perhaps man was divinely directed in writing the Bible as we find it today, and maybe one of His purposes was to embed these messages, thus, if ever they were discovered, it could serve at least to exemplify a mystery, thus opening up a door through which skeptics might pass. I believe God is compassionate and loving, so it occurs to me He might wish to extend a branch to those whose intellect makes faith difficult. Here we find mathematics meeting religion, and it does open a door, in a sense.

The official website is the Bible Code Digest, presented by the Isaac Newton Bible Code Research Society. I never learned this growing up, but Newton was a very devoted follower of God. He sought to find hidden meaning in the Bible throughout his life. They dedicate their work to his original work. One can visit the website and search various topics, to see if any code was ever found that pertained.

biblecodedigest.com/
biblecodedigest.com/page.php/497 Here's one that may support the belief that the Old Testament was written by only one author. It's a little dense for the non-mathematician, but all the evidence is there!

Anyone familiar? Your thoughts?


#2

I find it interesting as a study, but I don't really believe any of it (BTW, wouldn't this be better in "Sacred Scripture" or "Non-Catholic Religions"?). I think you can get anything out of the Bible if you manipulate it right (I'll bet you $1 Million I can find a reference to McDonald's in the French Translation of the New Testament by translation, mathematics, and/or text hunting :p). I'll take a look at that site and see if any of its legit. If you want to believe in Bible Code, that's fine. I'm just skeptic of it. I don't know for sure what the Church's position on it is though.


#3

I wrestled with putting the thread in a different forum, but ultimately they way I view this issue is that it is an aspect of spirituality (if you are moved to believe). I do think that the way they search for these passages is legitimate--so much so, that my less-than-average understanding of math isn't even quite sure of what they mean, when they lay out the formulas they use. However, they do work with mathematicians, physicists and other scientists, and they employ methods that ensure they aren't just "creating" evidence. For instance, they can prove that it's only the Bible, and not other books, that yield these results -- they'll attempt to apply the same formula to "regular" books, to show how their results are nothing.

It appears to me that for anyone who does believe that God is with us, and guides us, such evidence is in keeping with that idea.


#4

This got debunked. Apparently you can do the same with any long book like War And Peace with similar chances of finding “messages”. See, for example:

seattlepi.com/national/bibl11.shtml
straightdope.com/columns/read/1915/whats-up-with-the-bible-code
cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/


#5

Actually, I don't believe this has been debunked. They address such claims on their site. I am a believer.

Actually, in part I posted because I began wondering if it was the official position of the CC to reject these claims. I assumed it would be, but was curious to find out, and also, I should like to understand why.

To my understanding, the Bible was divinely inspired--we admit that men (mortals) wrote the books contained within it, yet we state that they were inspired by God, in so doing it -- that He directed its authorship. If this is the case, I don't find it all that hard to imagine that He might embed such things within its text. To me, it only illuminates yet more of God's sacred mysteries, it does nothing to detract from faith. However, I was curious to learn the viewpoint of a Catholic on this matter.

In reading about Isaac Newton and his spiritual quest, I found myself deeply moved. This implacable "man of science" was in fact one of the purest examples of a spiritual seeker that I have come across. His thirst for God, and for meaning, was en par with the examples we see from St. Therese of Avilla, St. John of the Cross, and other spiritual mystics. It's a shame we don't teach his spiritual side, relegating him to a mere "man of science." He's yet another example of the fact that when one studies science quite diligently, one does find God's hand in all that is.

Regarding the idea that this has been debunked:

From the website:
The Controversy:
We expose top Bible code myths and present a series of discoveries so improbable that no code skeptic could find similar examples in non-encoded texts.
biblecodedigest.com/page.php/523

Peace to all, and thanks for responding with your ideas.
Light1111


#6

Let me add another problem with these "codes": they're examples of post-diction, not prediction. A prediction describes an event before it happens; a post-diction describes an event after it's already happened...it fits the "message" to an event that we already know has occurred.

It's not impressive at all to go hunting in the Bible to riddle out things that have already taken place. If this "Bible Code" nonsense is real at all, then we should be able to use it to predict specific events before they happen. We should be able to get a message like, "The stock market will drop X points on Y day at Z time" and have it come to pass at some point in the future. If you could do that over and over again, then you'd have powerful evidence that the Bible really contains "messages."

What you have instead is an amusing number and word game, one you can play with any long text and get similar results.

[quote="Light1111, post:5, topic:216353"]
Actually, I don't believe this has been debunked. They address such claims on their site. I am a believer.

[/quote]

So you've been presented with evidence that it's possible to extract such "messages" from any long work, and you know that this is an exercise in post-diction (not prediciton), and you still insist on believing that the messages extracted from the Bible are somehow special?

PT Barnum would have something to say about this.


#7

[quote="inocente, post:4, topic:216353"]
This got debunked. Apparently you can do the same with any long book like War And Peace with similar chances of finding “messages”. See, for example:

seattlepi.com/national/bibl11.shtml
straightdope.com/columns/read/1915/whats-up-with-the-bible-code
cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/

[/quote]

There is more at Autopsy of the Bible Code.

Any sufficiently long Hebrew, or Arabic, text will contain similar codes. Other languages with explicitly written short vowels need longer texts because they don't allow the freedom to insert vowels at will.

rossum


#8

Thank you to all who weighed in on this. I suppose there are varying viewpoints to this topic! As for the ability to find "code" embedded within any text at all, I believe the distinction that is the privilege of the Isaac Newton Research Society is that the length of the codes they have deciphered defies all mathematical probability. Again, I will employ clumsy language if I attempt to explain this further, as my mathematical comprehension is too elementary to grasp the basic concepts outlined. What is clear is how rigorous this work really is. The director of this organization is a professional mathematician, who began his studies into this field of research 11 years ago. He did not have any belief his work would yield results; he undertook the work after having been exposed by the idea in his studies about Isaac Newton. You could say he endeavored to prove to himself that Newton was wrong! His objective was mere curiosity. The result shocked him--it made a believer out of him! So I think that is a beautiful story, in that it developed faith in a person who formerly did not have it.

I don't believe it is important to convince others of what you personally hold as an article of faith, and I only introduced this topic out of curiosity for what others would think. If anyone reading this thread is interested in how the Isaac Newton Research Society responds to the types of criticisms already mentioned by other members, you may visit these links to read further. At that point you can make up your own mind!

*  Answering Skeptics: [biblecodedigest.com/page.php/202](http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/202)
* What No Skeptic Can Find: [biblecodedigest.com/page.php/472](http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/472)

You might also find this article of interest: Top Bible Code Myths: biblecodedigest.com/page.php/523

For technical articles on the topic, visit this page: biblecodedigest.com/page.php/390

Thanks to all who weighed in; I do appreciate your posted comments!

Take care, and peace to each of you,
Light1111


#9

[quote="Light1111, post:8, topic:216353"]
Thank you to all who weighed in on this. I suppose there are varying viewpoints to this topic! As for the ability to find "code" embedded within any text at all, I believe the distinction that is the privilege of the Isaac Newton Research Society is that the length of the codes they have deciphered defies all mathematical probability. Again, I will employ clumsy language if I attempt to explain this further, as my mathematical comprehension is too elementary to grasp the basic concepts outlined. What is clear is how rigorous this work really is. The director of this organization is a professional mathematician, who began his studies into this field of research 11 years ago. He did not have any belief his work would yield results; he undertook the work after having been exposed by the idea in his studies about Isaac Newton. You could say he endeavored to prove to himself that Newton was wrong! His objective was mere curiosity. The result shocked him--it made a believer out of him! So I think that is a beautiful story, in that it developed faith in a person who formerly did not have it.

I don't believe it is important to convince others of what you personally hold as an article of faith, and I only introduced this topic out of curiosity for what others would think. If anyone reading this thread is interested in how the Isaac Newton Research Society responds to the types of criticisms already mentioned by other members, you may visit these links to read further. At that point you can make up your own mind!

*  Answering Skeptics: [biblecodedigest.com/page.php/202](http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/202)
* What No Skeptic Can Find: [biblecodedigest.com/page.php/472](http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/472)

You might also find this article of interest: Top Bible Code Myths: biblecodedigest.com/page.php/523

For technical articles on the topic, visit this page: biblecodedigest.com/page.php/390

Thanks to all who weighed in; I do appreciate your posted comments!

Take care, and peace to each of you,
Light1111

[/quote]

This guy is hilarious! Mathematicians do the exact same thing, and he propogates it no matter what has been proven. This is the difference between a propogandist and a true skeptic. the true skeptic takes all of the information and makes an educated decision. The prop doesn't, they rely on their preformed position without any consideration for an opposing view or evidence thereof. This is what i would deem as intillectual dishonesty, or the inability to be honest with one self because you are sensationalistic in your approach.


#10

I wouldn't put any stock into this either. All the words they've found have been after the fact and words and sequences of words appear in random areas and have been found to have random starting places. Some of the words that have been found are separated by 5 and 10 letters, but others are found to be separated by hundreds if not thousands of letters. The ability to "find" these sorts of words has only become possible with the use of high speed computers and sophisticated software. Also, I've heard that some rather unchristian sentiments can also be found in the Bible using this Bible Code.

The other thing that takes credence away from this is that this is not the nature of Christianity. Bible Codes seem to verge on a type of secret knowledge that is known by only a few people with the tools and resources. Christianity doesn't claim that knowledge and centuries ago fought against those that said they had "special" knowledge. Every teaching is open for anybody from the low-born to the pre-eminent Biblical scholar to examine. I have as much access to Christian truth as the Pope does.

ChadS


#11

I understand your points, and thank you for taking the time. I suppose what it comes down to is that the evidence I have seen in support has influenced me; the evidence others have seen in contrast has influenced them. I believe the opposing viewpoint is easy to empathize with. Initially, I was skeptical. That's generally my attitude as I approach all things until I have looked into it in greater detail. In familiarizing myself with the Bible Codes over several years, I've come across all viewpoints to the contrary. Such evidence is very compelling. It makes it appear as though nothing unique is to be found in the Bible. In the end, few of the codes that have ever been pulled at random from literature or other printed works constitute the length and coherence of idea such as those found by this group. The numbers speak for themselves. As far as these items being invalid because they are post-diction, this would make most scholarship very difficult, particularly the studies in archeology, paleontology, sociology. An exercise in logic; perhaps I don't need to underline it. However, simply because mathematicians have not yet discovered how to search for topics prior to their occurrence, does not mean it is not possible to do so. Nor was it impossible to fly a plane prior to its conception, invention, and successful flight.

Regarding the idea that this type of information is not Christlike, as it implies access to an arcane knowledge, I can see your point on that. To me, it is interesting, though, that if anyone wished to apply the question: "What happens if you skip every 50th letter for 10,000 spaces? Is anything then spelled out?" that they would be rewarded, with due diligence, with long sequences of phrases that happen to spell out compelling verse. The sequences are a great deal longer than any that can be randomly found in "War and Peace."

In any area of inquiry and research, if anything is findable, it is not arcane; no more so than it is arcane that certain of us will experience the interior of the atom firsthand, as additional schooling and training will permit us to work at the supermicroscopic levels. Many individuals have been moved religiously by such an experience. But it is not arcane, simply because few of us have had access to a full comprehension and understanding of the minute worlds. Any of us who chooses to make a foray into any area of higher learning is always free to do so. One can find unexplained mysteries in so many areas in life.

This information was lying dormant. Scientists and mathematicians of varying creeds and walks of life unearthed it. Its meaning? To me, its relevance is not in the details. It is in the fact that it exists. The true meaning is that we can find an underlying truth to all aspects of life. A hidden set of values, of tangibles and intangibles. Christianity is such an example. Ideas that find their roots in Judaism evolved to encompass Christ's message. One could say each message the old beliefs gained, in this evolutionary process, was there all along, in a latent state of potentiality. Just like all aspects of life on earth, from the conception and birth process, to the dawning of new understanding and expansion in human consciousness.

I really do appreciate all of your views. I suppose I'm simply willing to make that leap into the unknown.

Thank you again to all who responded!


#12

If you can speak one language, does that mean that you can speak all languages?

If in world war two, a spy sent encoded information to his home country, does that mean that the enemy can instantly read this code language because all code languages are alike?

Obviously not. In truth, all languages, code or not, are all different.

However, in the land of Bible Codes, when one Bible Code language was analyzed by statistical analysis experts, the conclusion quickly drawn was that "Bible Codes" are just a farce, just coincidental, just plain bogus. These statistical analysis experts, with their PhD's in this and that, in short had foolishly concluded that if you examine just one code language, just ONE, you are therefore examining all other endless numbers of possible code languages at the same time. Sadly, most religious folk of today, instantly fell for such trickery.

From then onward, the general practice of "Reject before Inspect", was applied to any other Bible Code Language.

Thus to most religious folk of today, if one apple in the basket is bad, that clearly means that all the apples in the basket are bad, and thus there is no need to even look at them. If this were not true, then this rule would not have been applied to "Bible Codes".


#13

[quote="JesuisSean, post:12, topic:216353"]
If you can speak one language, does that mean that you can speak all languages?

If in world war two, a spy sent encoded information to his home country, does that mean that the enemy can instantly read this code language because all code languages are alike?

Obviously not. In truth, all languages, code or not, are all different.

However, in the land of Bible Codes, when one Bible Code language was analyzed by statistical analysis experts, the conclusion quickly drawn was that "Bible Codes" are just a farce, just coincidental, just plain bogus. These statistical analysis experts, with their PhD's in this and that, in short had foolishly concluded that if you examine just one code language, just ONE, you are therefore examining all other endless numbers of possible code languages at the same time. Sadly, most religious folk of today, instantly fell for such trickery.

From then onward, the general practice of "Reject before Inspect", was applied to any other Bible Code Language.

Thus to most religious folk of today, if one apple in the basket is bad, that clearly means that all the apples in the basket are bad, and thus there is no need to even look at them. If this were not true, then this rule would not have been applied to "Bible Codes".

[/quote]

The vast majority of code work was done on ancient Hebrew from the Old Testament. It probably made up 95% or more of the code words that were found out there so if methodological flaws are found in the one that has received the most scrutiny it's unlikely the other ones are valid either.

I think in a larger question goes towards the nature of God. Do you believe in a God that hides words at random intervals? What does that mean and is it important for humans?

ChadS


#14

[quote="Light1111, post:1, topic:216353"]
I wondered if anyone in this Forum was familiar with the Bible Code, and the mathematicians who work on it. I've been on their website a few times, and there is some incredible stuff there. Their work is mathematical, instead of religious. However, as a spiritual person who believes in God, I have found my faith strengthened by their findings.

I'll provide a clumsy explanation if I attempt it, so perhaps anyone who is interested ought to look it up and see the official explanation! Essentially: each Hebrew letter corresponds to a number. If one strings each letter in the Bible together, omitting all stops, breaks, and punctuation of any kind, a long sequence of numbers emerges. The mathematicians take these numbers, and attempt to discern any pattern-recognition in them. They do so by skipping letters. Let's say they try to take each 50th letter in a row. If every 50th letter, when strung together, spells out a message, they say this is a message that was embedded in the text, or is "Bible Code." To this point, their approach has not advanced to the point where they can find what is hidden prior to having any specific idea in mind. All they're able to do, is search for known events.

For instance: they have searched for strings of information about Obama, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, Hurricane Katrina, etc. -- and have found long strings of phrasing (embedded within the original text) that state the names, events, and places of these occurrences. In some cases, messages are then added, such as judgments that thus pertain, or advice, in some cases.

They do not hold a theory for how this is possible. They approach it mathematically.

As a believer in God, I have wondered about the following theory: whether the Bible has both the literal, surface meanings, and simultaneously has embedded within its text, prophetic messages that illustrate that all is known prior to its occurrence.

If this were the case, it would serve to strengthen my belief in God. We often say that God is omniscient, so it ought not be a trying exercise to entertain the notion that He can foresee all events. Therefore, this would illustrate that perhaps man was divinely directed in writing the Bible as we find it today, and maybe one of His purposes was to embed these messages, thus, if ever they were discovered, it could serve at least to exemplify a mystery, thus opening up a door through which skeptics might pass. I believe God is compassionate and loving, so it occurs to me He might wish to extend a branch to those whose intellect makes faith difficult. Here we find mathematics meeting religion, and it does open a door, in a sense.

The official website is the Bible Code Digest, presented by the Isaac Newton Bible Code Research Society. I never learned this growing up, but Newton was a very devoted follower of God. He sought to find hidden meaning in the Bible throughout his life. They dedicate their work to his original work. One can visit the website and search various topics, to see if any code was ever found that pertained.

biblecodedigest.com/
biblecodedigest.com/page.php/497 Here's one that may support the belief that the Old Testament was written by only one author. It's a little dense for the non-mathematician, but all the evidence is there!

Anyone familiar? Your thoughts?

[/quote]

After a few rounds of "Bible Code" stuff appeared on, I think, the History Channel or some other documentary network back in 2007 (perhaps 2008) and onward, I looked for a prediction. Finally found two and wrote them down. The first one was,

L A QUAKE 2010

Because I gave this some credibility, I passed up a chance to present a screenplay to a Hollywood producer. Dumb.

The second prediction was COMET HIT 2012.

I suspect that the second prediction is as reliable as the first proved to be.

Mathematics can be used to justify anything. Really. Back in the 18th century there were university courses teaching phlogiston theory, complete with mathematical formulas. Today, math is used to support Big Bang theory, string theory, and the notion of a physical singularity at the beginning of the universe. It is even less trustworthy than Obama's word, if such an abysmal level of worthlessness can be imagined.

One good measure of the trustworthiness of these people is this: check their information base for references to the faulty LA quake prediction. Have they buried it, disclaimed it, or what? How they've handled that error will tell you much.


#15

[quote="ChadS, post:13, topic:216353"]
The vast majority of code work was done on ancient Hebrew from the Old Testament. It probably made up 95% or more of the code words that were found out there so if methodological flaws are found in the one that has received the most scrutiny it's unlikely the other ones are valid either.......
ChadS

[/quote]

I see your point.

If most of the focus was say..... upon maintaining slavery, but slavery turned out to be a bad thing, the idea of no slavery would be just as bad too, and so there is no need to look into that ridiculous "no slavery" idea, since it was the act of maintaining slavery that had received the most scrutiny.


#16

The Bible does have prophetic messages which have spiritual significance. Why would God inspire coded messages which have no spiritual significance? :confused:


#17

Over the last ten years or so, I have encountered a fascinating ongoing reoccurrence of rejection.

That which was rejected, was the proof of the existence of God.
The act of this rejection, was performed by the religious folk.
This was then followed by violent opposition, mocking, etc…

I was totally stunned by it all.

The typical response was, " We don’t need any proof, for we simply believe in God, period.".

If I believe that if I continue to breath, I will remain conscious, I don’t think it would be
suffice to simply stick to that belief and say that the belief is satisfactory on its own.
No, I would move away from that belief by moving over to the truth of which it speaks of.
Thus I would breath.

God supports truth.
Satan supports lies and deceit.

And so who is it that would rather stay away from the truth, via sticking to the belief instead?

Anyhow, the Bible Codes were not welcome at all.


#18

[quote="Light1111, post:1, topic:216353"]
I wondered if anyone in this Forum was familiar with the Bible Code, and the mathematicians who work on it. I've been on their website a few times, and there is some incredible stuff there. Their work is mathematical, instead of religious. However, as a spiritual person who believes in God, I have found my faith strengthened by their findings.

I'll provide a clumsy explanation if I attempt it, so perhaps anyone who is interested ought to look it up and see the official explanation! Essentially: each Hebrew letter corresponds to a number. If one strings each letter in the Bible together, omitting all stops, breaks, and punctuation of any kind, a long sequence of numbers emerges. The mathematicians take these numbers, and attempt to discern any pattern-recognition in them. They do so by skipping letters. Let's say they try to take each 50th letter in a row. If every 50th letter, when strung together, spells out a message, they say this is a message that was embedded in the text, or is "Bible Code." To this point, their approach has not advanced to the point where they can find what is hidden prior to having any specific idea in mind. All they're able to do, is search for known events.

For instance: they have searched for strings of information about Obama, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, Hurricane Katrina, etc. -- and have found long strings of phrasing (embedded within the original text) that state the names, events, and places of these occurrences. In some cases, messages are then added, such as judgments that thus pertain, or advice, in some cases.

They do not hold a theory for how this is possible. They approach it mathematically.

As a believer in God, I have wondered about the following theory: whether the Bible has both the literal, surface meanings, and simultaneously has embedded within its text, prophetic messages that illustrate that all is known prior to its occurrence.

If this were the case, it would serve to strengthen my belief in God. We often say that God is omniscient, so it ought not be a trying exercise to entertain the notion that He can foresee all events. Therefore, this would illustrate that perhaps man was divinely directed in writing the Bible as we find it today, and maybe one of His purposes was to embed these messages, thus, if ever they were discovered, it could serve at least to exemplify a mystery, thus opening up a door through which skeptics might pass. I believe God is compassionate and loving, so it occurs to me He might wish to extend a branch to those whose intellect makes faith difficult. Here we find mathematics meeting religion, and it does open a door, in a sense.

The official website is the Bible Code Digest, presented by the Isaac Newton Bible Code Research Society. I never learned this growing up, but Newton was a very devoted follower of God. He sought to find hidden meaning in the Bible throughout his life. They dedicate their work to his original work. One can visit the website and search various topics, to see if any code was ever found that pertained.

biblecodedigest.com/
biblecodedigest.com/page.php/497 Here's one that may support the belief that the Old Testament was written by only one author. It's a little dense for the non-mathematician, but all the evidence is there!

Anyone familiar? Your thoughts?

[/quote]

:thumbsup:

Four digits come to mind, mathematically speaking: 2334, found in Luke.

:)


#19

I informed CNN of the fact that The biggest discovery...EVER...has occurred.

CNN was more interested in the longest distance of which someone could throw a paper airplane.

The biggest discovery...EVER can be found at outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2a.htm

See if YOU can explain the code pattern that screams out loud, HERE I AM, SEE ME.


#20
  1. This should probably be in the Sacred Scripture forum.

  2. This thread is over a year old. Please refrain from replying to threads over a year old. If the topic is still relevant a new thread can be started.

Thank you.


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