bible passage

Does anyone know the specific bible passage where it says to follow the church? I want to be armed for my discussions with my protestant friends.

Hi, Brenden!
…there’s no such passage–at least not worded in such a way… however, there are various passages that demonstrate the Church’s Authority as Delegated by Christ:

Christ Separates Simon from amongst the Twelve and all of His other followers:

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and [size=]on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it[/size]. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. (St. Matthew 16:17-20)

Jesus, expressly, did not include the rest of His disciples; by singularizing one Disciple He is Instituting His Church to guide all men.

What is interesting about most non-Catholic Christians is that they profess to follow Scriptures (meaning: Scriptures Authority is the final word); yet, they reject even Jesus’ Command when it comes to obedience to the Word:

15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: [size=]tell the church[/size]. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. (St. Matthew 18:15-17)

Jesus could not be more clear: when an important issue (Salvation) is in play what does Jesus Command?: a) That we pray on it? b) That we seek Jesus out? c) That we take it to the Father? d) That we Call on the Holy Spirit for Guidance? e) That we search Sacred Scriptures?.. None of the preceding! Jesus Commands that we take it to the Church! WOW! The actual event (inauguration of the Church) has not taken place yet Jesus has Delegated His Authority to the Church and is Commanding His Followers to seek the Church’s Authority in dealing with Salvation (the most important issue in a Christian’s life).

Do the Apostles understand this relationship, Christ and His Church? Yeah!:

just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. (Ephesians 5:29c-32)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another. 26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. (1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 25-28)

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so. 10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. (Hebrews 13:7-10, 17)

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (Romans 13:1-2, 4-5)

Maran atha!

Angel

Well, these are Jesus’ words in Matthew 23:3 “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you."

This is an example of God giving rulership to earthly religious authorities. I’m sure your protestant friends would agree that the Law of Moses has been superseded by faith and by Christ’s leadership. We are no longer subject to the scribes and pharisees, but this rule has been passed to Christian authorities. God still uses an earthly religious authority today, and that would be the church.

I think this scripture would be a good and logical example to make.

Check this out, I think it will help you get to the point you are looking for.

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-40210#

Start listening around the 3 minute mark.

Tim gives an excellent Biblical response about Apostolic authority and succession.

The above replies are great.

As a preparation for any discussion about the Catholic Church, my suggestion is to prayerfully read chapter 14, Gospel of John. One of the many obvious points is John 14: 18. This serves as a proclamation of the future visible Catholic Church where God says “Here I am.” Is it really reasonable to ignore the institution where Jesus is coming to us, especially in the Holy Eucharist?

If you study the Church Fathers and early church history you will realise that practises of the early church were very similar to how the church functions today, rspecially with regard to the Liturgy and the Priesthood. Also see 1 Tim. 3:15
“but, in order that thou mayest know, if I am delayed, how to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth.”

This is exactly the quote I was thinking of, too. Yet, it’s not a slam dunk. For those who have left the Catholic Church (or refuse to enter into it), they’ve created an alternative definition of ‘Church’ (into which, conveniently, they fit). So, if you tell them that “the Church of the living God [is] the pillar and mainstay of the truth,” they’ll happily agree with you, confident that they’re part of the Church!

(And, in a way, they are, if they’re baptized Christians! Although not in perfect unity with the Catholic Church, they share in its gifts and promises…)

Do you have any examples of the liturgy and priesthood from the first few centuries? I didn’t think Christian leaders were called priests until the 3rd century or later. Scripted liturgies started sometime after that too as far as I am aware.

I see this verse used a lot. These chapters are about Paul giving instructions to Timothy and his church. It seems to me that he is giving instructions so that the church can be “the pillar and mainstay of the truth.” I don’t see that this means that the church is guaranteed of being the “pillar and mainstay of the truth” and that it is impossible for the church to make an error. When read in context it doesn’t sound like that at all. If the church was innately the “pillar and mainstay of the truth” then Paul wouldn’t have needed to send so much instruction.

Perhaps my friend you’ll find some evidence i these:)

John.17 Verses 17 to 20 "[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
[18] As thou didst send me into the world,*** so I have sent them into the world***.
[19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
[20] "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”

1Tim. 3: 15 **if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the [SINGULAR] household of God, **which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth [SINGULAR]

Matthew 18:17 “And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican”.

Eph. 2: 20-23 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, [singular] being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. [singular] In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.”

Psalms 127:1 “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

Isaiah 51:1 "Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, Who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn And to the quarry from which you were dug.”

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

1 John 4: “Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

***[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes


John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

Matthew 11: 25 ”At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.

Matthew 11: 25 ”At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.

Mt. 7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”

God Bless you

Patrick

Hmm… no, that doesn’t seem right. The Church doesn’t need Paul to give it instruction – after all, it’s founded by Christ! Rather, this new minister (Timothy) does need instruction, so that he might serve “the pillar and mainstay of the truth” truly and well!

Christian leaders were called priests in the NT, Susan.

“Priest” comes from the word “presbyteros”.

James 5:14

You could return the question and say, “Where is the specific bible passage where it says to follow the bible alone?”

Answer: no where.

That’s a man-made tradition they’ve been duped into following.

Hi, Gorgias!
…what I find truly perplexing is how they would apply that passage to their “church” while, simultaneously, denying it to the Church (ditto with the “Inspiration of the Holy Spirit”). :whistle::whistle::whistle:

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi, Susan!
Here’s the first Christian apologist, Justin Martyr–100-165 AD: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr, with snapshots of early Church Liturgy:

Chapter 67
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the **memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets **are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and **to those who are absent **a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour **on the same day **rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Chapter 66
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. (newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm)

…so Believers who want to Worship God according to the early Church cannot but recognize the Catholic Church in History!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi, Susan!
…so through your exegesis you conclude that St. Paul is the “pillar and mainstay of the truth” and that it is he who then “teaches” others to “create” “churches” that would have his essence?

Maran atha!

Angel

Presbyteros and various forms of that word are translated elder in the English language.

presbuteros - “elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.” - biblehub.com/greek/4245.htm

James 5:14 in Greek: biblehub.com/text/james/5-14.htm

This word is used 12 other times and always is translated elder: biblehub.com/greek/presbuterous_4245.htm

In the New Testament forms of the word hiereus are translated to priest in English.

a priest, one who offers sacrifice to a god (in Jewish and pagan religions; of Christians only met.). - biblehub.com/greek/2409.htm

Here are 11 examples of the Greek word hiereus in the New Testament. The word priest refers to a Jewish priest, Pagan priest or Jesus (High Priest of Hebrews): biblehub.com/greek/iereus_2409.htm

I am not aware of a Christian leader (except Jesus) being called a priest until a few centuries later. I believe it was Cyprian of the 3rd century, but I do not remember for certain. Perhaps the term presbyteros (elder) slowly evolved into hiereus (priest), but in 1st century Judaism these were 2 distinctly separate roles with completely different meanings. 1st century Christian leaders were called presbyteros (wise elder) and not hiereus (one who mediates a sacrifice).

I don’t understand how this worship is more similar to a Catholic mass than the worship of any other church. It does describe liturgy in the sense that liturgy is a word for worship. However, I believe that today we believe liturgy or liturgical worship to be reading or reciting passages as a group in an organized fashion. I do not see evidence of this in Justin Martyr’s First Apology. I see a reader reading Scripture, a teacher/president teaching about the Scripture, communion and offering. It sounds just like my church! :slight_smile: And 99% of Christian churches.! :slight_smile: Except most churches sing songs. I don’t know if they weren’t singing in churches at this time or if it was just left out.

Yes. IOW: “priest”.

You do see the linguistic similarity, yes?

presbuteros - “elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.” - biblehub.com/greek/4245.htm

James 5:14 in Greek: biblehub.com/text/james/5-14.htm

This word is used 12 other times and always is translated elder: biblehub.com/greek/presbuterous_4245.htm

Correct. And who are these elders, but presbyters…that is, priests.

In the New Testament forms of the word hiereus are translated to priest in English.

a priest, one who offers sacrifice to a god (in Jewish and pagan religions; of Christians only met.). - biblehub.com/greek/2409.htm

Here are 11 examples of the Greek word hiereus in the New Testament. The word priest refers to a Jewish priest, Pagan priest or Jesus (High Priest of Hebrews): biblehub.com/greek/iereus_2409.htm

Yes.

I am not aware of a Christian leader (except Jesus) being called a priest until a few centuries later.

Yes. Not sure what this means?

I am not aware of any Christian leader using the term Trinity until a few centuries later, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t part of the kerygma in the 1st century–yes?

Do you observe the commemoration of the Lord’s Supper every Sunday at your church?

1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

I actually have always thought that when read in English it sounds like it is God. I don’t know much about Greek and how to tell which noun is being referred to by an adjective phrase.

I can understand that it may be the church being referred to if someone who knows Greek realizes this is true. However I don’t think that this means the church is infallible, but that the church is the place that should maintain God’s truths. I think we are reading too much into it if we give one isolated verse more meaning than that - especially in the context of the whole letter.

This commentary is interesting:

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
The pillar and ground of the truth - Never was there a greater variety of opinions on any portion of the sacred Scripture than has been on this and the following verse. Commentators and critics have given senses and meanings till there is no meaning to be seen. It would be almost impossible, after reading all that has been said on this passage, for any man to make up his own mind. To what, or to whom, does the pillar and ground of the truth refer?

  1. Some say to Timothy, who is called the pillar, etc., because left there to support and defend the truth of God against false doctrines and false teachers; and is so called for the same reason that Peter, James, and John, are said to be pillars, i.e. supporters of the truth of God. Galatians 2:9.
  1. Others suppose that the pillar and ground of the truth is spoken of God; and that ὁς εστι, who is, should be supplied as referring immediately to Θεος, God, just before. By this mode of interpretation the passage will read thus: That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, Who Is (ὁς εστι) the pillar and ground of the truth. How God may be fitly termed the pillar and ground of truth, requires no explanation.
  1. Others think that the words should be understood of the Church of the living God; and in this case the feminine relative ἡτις εστι, which is, must be repeated immediately after εκκλησια, the Church. The house of God is the Church of the living God; Which (Church) Is the pillar and ground of the truth. That is: The full revelation of God’s truth is in the Christian Church. The great doctrines of that Church are the truth without error, metaphor, or figure. Formerly the truth was but partially revealed, much of it being shadowed with types, ceremonies, and comparatively dark prophecies; but now all is plain, and the full revelation given; and the foundation on which this truth rests are the grand facts detailed in the Gospel, especially those which concern the incarnation, miracles, passion, death, and resurrection of Christ, and the mission of the Holy Spirit.
  1. Lastly, others refer the whole to το της ευσεβειας μυστηριον, the mystery of godliness; and translate the clause thus: The mystery of godliness is the pillar and ground of the truth; and, without controversy, a great thing. This gives a very good sense, but it is not much favored by the arrangement of the words in the original.

bibleapps.com/commentaries/1_timothy/3-15.htm

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