Bible question!


#1

Can someone please explain 1 corinthians 6:3 I attended a bible study this past Saturday and it was not a Catholic bible study and I did not find believable that we will be able to judge anyone… Is It wrong to attend a bible study that is not catholic???


#2

Don’t take single verses out of context. He is building an argument against settling disputes in secular courts that should be settled by the Church. Read the entire passage and see how this fits within the whole. Taking scripture out of context, is a protestant speciality for 500 years now. Discussing like this aren’t wise unless you know your faith and bible well before hand.


#3

The Catholic church gave us the bible, the Catholic church preserved the bible for centuries making it the most well preserved and reliable document document ever. WHY WOULD YOU SEEK ANYONE’S INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE OTHER THEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH


#4

I don’t really understand your question. What sense did your group try to make of this verse?

(I have attended Bible study in a Christian Reformed church, for a couple years. The three Catholic Churches in Elmhurst IL did not offer a Bible study of any kind. It went OK for a while but Catholics dropped in and out because they did not like the environment. I was there about four years until some guy started attacking me directly.)

I have a patristic (early church fathers) commentary and the quotations are not helpful. The most salient comment was that if we are followers of Christ and obey his commands, then we are, in effect, judging others who are not like this.

I have felt this way in the company of an ex-Catholic who was atheistic and anti-Catholic in particular. She could certainly sense my judgment simply because I didn’t agree with her in her ideas or actions.


#5

Some think it’s ill-advised. I think it’s useful to study comparative religions. Every priest and theology student that I know of has taken it, plus they teach it at our Catholic high schools as a required course.

Looking at things from a different point of view can lead to insights and questions that ultimately drive us to dig deeper into our own Catholic faith.

MS


#6

YESSENIA1 #1
I did not find believable that we will be able to judge anyone

We are commanded by Christ Himself to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).


#7

It is ill-advised to attend non-catholic Bible studies if you are not well-grounded in the faith. It can be of some benefit if you are strong and knowledgable in the faith if you use it to compare views and contrast them with Catholic theology.

About the passage, it is dealing with making judgments about actions and events. We are called to judge and discern with truth about actions and events. What you may be confused about is the judgment of souls, which is the authority of Jesus alone. The angels in this regard have already been judged. I would understand this passage more along the lines of the authority given to the Church. Jesus Himself said that “whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven”. This is probably what St. Paul is referring to.

He is chastising the Corinthian Christians who are turning to the pagans to decide matters among Christians instead of the parish deciding there.


#8

:thumbsup:

[quote=Mystical Seeker]Some think it’s ill-advised. I think it’s useful to study comparative religions. Every priest and theology student that I know of has taken it, plus they teach it at our Catholic high schools as a required course.
[/quote]

There’s a big difference between stepping into the wading pool of a classroom study of comparative religions and stepping into the shark tank of an encounter with non-Catholic theology in the wild. Priests and theologians study comparative religions because they have graduate degrees in Catholic theology. For a person without that kind of experience and education, the danger of walking into a non-Catholic study of Scripture is that he will be unable to discern the differences between Catholic and non-Catholic theology, and as a result, will walk away misinformed.

[quote=zz912]About the passage, it is dealing with making judgments about actions and events. He is chastising the Corinthian Christians who are turning to the pagans to decide matters among Christians instead of the parish deciding there.
[/quote]

Right: if the Christians in Corinth have rightly discerned that Christ is God, and that their hope lies in Him and not in the attractions of the world, then they have accurately “judged the world.” Note Paul’s wording: he isn’t saying that Christians pass judgment on people, but on the world (the word he’s using here is ‘cosmos’). The point isn’t “now go out and judge all those nasty pagans out there!” but rather “now go out and seek resolution to the problems in the community by relying on the wisdom of the Church, not the wisdom of the local magistrate!”


#9

sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/1-corinthians/cornelius-a-lapide-on-1-corinthians/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6

The link above is from Cornelius a Lapide, who you never go wrong with. the Church Fathers agree that this means that God and his saints will judge men and angels.


#10

I don’t fear hearing an opinion that may be wrong, because until I have checked it out I hold it as “their way of stating it.” Sometimes others say things I’ve never heard discussed by Catholics so it opens new avenues of interest to explore Catholic teachings. :bible1:

But I understand it’s hard for a lot of people to do that. To go where someone speaks emphatically and with presumed authority, and not believe everything they hear. :okpeople:

I’ve dealt with enough liars and deluded people that I don’t buy anything just because a person sounds sincere and emphatic about it. Neither do I believe what commercials say about a product unless I have additional evidence from my own or other customers’ research and experience. :nerd:

Most people seem to be in one of two “modes” at any given time. Either they like the speaker and open their mind and let in whatever is said without critical examination, or they don’t like the speaker and resist everything they hear. Therefore I concede that for these people, it isn’t a good idea. If they resist, why go at all? If they are open, they don’t subject what they hear to examination before it gets internalized and they believe it and may not even remember where they heard it but “by golly” they know it’s true. :shrug:

MS


#11

Yep, that makes perfect sense. Here’s the thing, though: the problem isn’t the things that perk up your ears and make you say “hey, that doesn’t sound right…” but rather, those things that make it through your internal filter. Moreover, there are things that we think we know and understand (but might not have as good a grasp on them as we think we do), so when someone pushes up on them, our misunderstanding prevents us from being able to mentally counter them – and our misunderstanding is now compounded by our projection of it on the topic at hand. :shrug:

Sometimes others say things I’ve never heard discussed by Catholics so it opens new avenues of interest to explore Catholic teachings. :bible1:

What if it’s something that you’d heard talked about by Catholics – but unbeknownst to you, these Catholics themselves weren’t accurately representing Church teaching? In that case, the Protestant teaching would act to affirm the erroneous notions you’d heard elsewhere. :wink:

But I understand it’s hard for a lot of people to do that. To go where someone speaks emphatically and with presumed authority, and not believe everything they hear. :okpeople:

I don’t think that it’s a matter of “I’m a more enlightened, more analytical, and more discerning person than those Catholics over there” thing.


#12

Exactly. That’s why it pays to keep building the filter! :thumbsup:

What if it’s something that you’d heard talked about by Catholics – but unbeknownst to you, these Catholics themselves weren’t accurately representing Church teaching? In that case, the Protestant teaching would act to affirm the erroneous notions you’d heard elsewhere. :wink:

Actually I’ve seen that a lot of places. People think they know something and then go around repeating because it either sounds right or it reinforces their previous thoughts or fits their religious “agenda” as it were. Sometimes when people come off like they know what they’re talking about I think, “something doesn’t sound right about that. I just can’t believe Jesus would have wanted it like this.” Then sure enough, looking into it more it turns out they were in fact.

Even if it is an apologist, if it’s something I think is really important, I will still look to back it up. There are times apologists disagree on things and both seem to be sure of themselves. My feeling is that I have to answer to God whether or not I get sucked in by somebody’s story. So especially if it’s a matter of salvation, I don’t trust anybody else in particular with my eternal soul except as an advisor; ultimately I can’t fool God about what is really in my mind and heart.

One thing I try to do, is listen to the Bible a whole lot. I read it some, but listen to it on audiobook more. I bought the Audible NT of the NABRE version and just let it run, in the car, at home, whatever. It has an effect on me that helps me “sense” when somebody is feeding me a line. So yes again build your filter!!

I don’t think that it’s a matter of “I’m a more enlightened, more analytical, and more discerning person than those Catholics over there” thing.

In a lot of cases, I actually have done a lot of analysis or study on a particular issue – not so much an apologetic way but just as much philosophical and biblical. And I do find the stereotype of Catholics not knowing the Bible kind of feels like it has some basis. Which is why it is rewarding when I hear a Catholic who wants to know something, and I get to offer a wonderful scripture that helps them.

I’m more closely involved in the Bible itself and not as much in Church teachings so actually a lot of what I learn is from here. So even when I hear Church Teachings here on CAF, I don’t believe it unless I see sufficient authoritative source to back it up. If it doesn’t sound right, I want even a fuller explanation. Until then, I keep it as, “I was told the Church says this …” but I won’t say, “the Church says this …” as my own, until I’ve backed it up. The biggest recent example, was people were telling me that the Catholics and Protestant have signed a joint agreement on “faith” and “works” issue. Well gosh it turns out they do, and it’s on the Vatican website. :thumbsup:

Here: see for yourself. :slight_smile: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

But I see Catholics and Protestant insulting each other, because they did not “get the memo.” :rolleyes:

That’s not because I’m a better Catholic than anyone else; it’s because I am very academic and technical, and I used to sign drawings that if details were wrong people could die. So it’s part of my professional training and experience to keep track of what has and has not been verified. I like to hear as many ways as are available, to view the same truth. I even like to know what lies are out there, so I can know to protect against them. :nerd:

MS


#13

Absolutely – build the filter, without a doubt! The issue, though, isn’t whether you build it, but where you go to ‘build the filter’! A Protestant Bible study is not the right place. When one needs to build up his understanding, he goes somewhere that will teach him and build him up, not somewhere that teaches error and threatens to tear him down… right? :wink:

In a lot of cases, I actually have done a lot of analysis or study on a particular issue – not so much an apologetic way but just as much philosophical and biblical. And I do find the stereotype of Catholics not knowing the Bible kind of feels like it has some basis.

it’s because I am very academic and technical, and I used to sign drawings that if details were wrong people could die. So it’s part of my professional training and experience to keep track of what has and has not been verified.

OK, but hold on – you’ve just moved the goalposts. The question wasn’t “what’s the best way for Mystical Seeker to learn the faith?”, but “is attendance at a Protestant Bible study the best way to learn the faith?” For you, there’s the chance that this is helpful; but, you’re projecting your personal experience onto others (in a way you already see is invalid – since you see that you don’t fit the characterization of a typical Catholic), and are now trying to say “what works for me is the best course of action for people in general.” That just doesn’t work. :shrug:

The biggest recent example, was people were telling me that the Catholics and Protestant have signed a joint agreement on “faith” and “works” issue. Well gosh it turns out they do, and it’s on the Vatican website. :thumbsup:

Here: see for yourself. :slight_smile: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

But I see Catholics and Protestant insulting each other, because they did not “get the memo.” :rolleyes:

Case in point. You realize you’re helping me demonstrate my assertion, don’t you? :wink:

“Catholics and Protestants have signed a joint agreement on ‘faith and works’”? No… not even close. Catholics and Lutherans have done so. And, it’s not even all Lutherans, but just some. If you go to some Lutherans (Missouri Synod, IIRC), they’ll tell you that this agreement doesn’t speak to their faith tradition. If you go to Evangelicals, they’ll definitely tell you that this is the case. Now… what’s this about personal exploration and inquiry leading to accurate representation of knowledge? :wink:


#14

I didn’t say I was building up my understanding, just opening new doors of discovery. But if you are afraid that hearing the point of view of a non-Catholic is going to mess up your own understanding, then by all means I heartily endorse your desire to stay away.

OK, but hold on – you’ve just moved the goalposts. The question wasn’t “what’s the best way for Mystical Seeker to learn the faith?”, but “is attendance at a Protestant Bible study the best way to learn the faith?” For you, there’s the chance that this is helpful; but, you’re projecting your personal experience onto others (in a way you already see is invalid – since you see that you don’t fit the characterization of a typical Catholic), and are now trying to say “what works for me is the best course of action for people in general.” That just doesn’t work. :shrug:

You are right. And I think I was absolutely clear that this has worked for me, and it may be helpful for others. But no if I said this is the way to do things, then you misheard me. On the other hand, I get the impression that you are saying that except for me, you would give a blanket “stay away” to anyone who asked, unless they had a theology degree. So I am allowing the same options you are, plus adding some. Your advice therefore is more restrictive so I think it’s kind of cute that you wish to engage in intellectual banter over this. :love:

Case in point. You realize you’re helping me demonstrate my assertion, don’t you? :wink:

“Catholics and Protestants have signed a joint agreement on ‘faith and works’”? No… not even close. Catholics and Lutherans have done so. And, it’s not even all Lutherans, but just some. If you go to some Lutherans (Missouri Synod, IIRC), they’ll tell you that this agreement doesn’t speak to their faith tradition. If you go to Evangelicals, they’ll definitely tell you that this is the case. Now… what’s this about personal exploration and inquiry leading to accurate representation of knowledge? :wink:

You are exactly right. I fully intended to say Catholics v. Lutherans, knowing that Lutheran is a subset of “Protestant.” I didn’t even realize that until you just pointed it out so either I’m thinking of the Reformation (because I do a lot) or it was a Freudian slip maybe. :wink: That’s one reason I like to cite my sources; so that when I type something in error, in case I can’t get back and correct it you have the reference to identify what I have done wrong. Therefore you have done well to filter what I wrote – luckily I provided you with the reference so you didn’t have to Google it yourself. Right? :thumbsup:

MS


#15

You are well advised to take anything I write (some arbitrary person on the Internet) and check my references. If I did not speak for all Lutherans, then I’m glad I showed it to you because now I know it’s even more focused than that.

That said, I am not naive to think that this document speaks for all of the various competing forms of Lutheran (as you have reminded me) or more even than that, on either the Lutheran or Catholic side, that any given person sitting in the pew believes that way.

So there. I’ve given you full permission to disregard everything I write, and draw your own conclusions from your sources. But if you have not seen the joint resolution before, then I challenge you to accept that you got some good information out of the interchange even thought it was not the wrong blather I typed. :rolleyes:

That’s why I like people to tell me their personal thoughts on things, and if they want to tell me “how it is” according to the Church or another authority, that they can point me to that authority for better understanding and more complete information. :cool:

MS


#16

No – that’s a rather subtle misstatement of my position. It’s not “fear of messing up one’s understanding”, it’s the concern that, prior to having acquired a solid and complete understanding, one is at risk of acquiring a poor understanding. It’s an important distinction…

I get the impression that you are saying that except for me, you would give a blanket “stay away” to anyone who asked, unless they had a theology degree.

Not precisely: I’m suggesting that, if a person does not know what the Church teaches, he should first learn Church teaching. Then, later, if he wishes to study ‘comparative religions’, then that study can take place in a variety of contexts. But, those basics of Catholic teaching should be learned in the context of the Church.

So, your impression is close, but not quite on target: ‘stay away’ from non-Catholic teaching is the advice I’d give anyone who does not have a solid understanding of what the Church teaches. Phrased another way, it’s “go to Catholic sources and learn Catholic theology”.

So I am allowing the same options you are, plus adding some. Your advice therefore is more restrictive so I think it’s kind of cute that you wish to engage in intellectual banter over this. :love:

Right. Because the only people who can be intellectual are ones who claim they have ‘open minds’? :rolleyes:

In any case, the hallmark of an intellectual (a cute one or not ;)) isn’t that they “allow more options” or that they’re not “more restrictive”, but that they offer good, reasoned arguments. So far, your argument is “I have certain talents and experiences, and this has appeared to have worked for me, so I think I’ll recommend it as a good option in general.” :hmmm:

Therefore you have done well to filter what I wrote – luckily I provided you with the reference so you didn’t have to Google it yourself. Right? :thumbsup:

Actually, no. Your citation didn’t at all address the issue I raised (i.e., that the Joint Declaration is not accepted by all Lutherans). You see, if one was self-taught, and only read references off the internet (and was not taught by a reputable Catholic source), he would have read your citation and concluded, “wow! All Lutherans agree with the Catholic Church regarding justification!”… and that would be a huge misunderstanding. Luckily, I provided you with information that you didn’t have and weren’t (ostensibly) aware of, so you didn’t have to hope to stumble upon it in Google at some point in the future. Right? :thumbsup:


#17

That makes sense. Learn the right stuff first, then go looking around at the other stuff. That’s a perfectly valid strategy; I have no problem with that.

For me, I like doing comparing as I go. When I hear something spoken, I like to look at it from different directions; inside, outside, opposite, etc. That’s part of how I learn. Everybody learns differently but I know others who share my approach. Also I stay interested longer when I see alternate stories.

Right. Because the only people who can be intellectual are ones who claim they have ‘open minds’? :rolleyes:

Hee hee. :stuck_out_tongue:

No, people can claim to be intellectual if they know a lot of stuff, or know to do cool stuff or figure some stuff out, or meet requirements for certain credentials.

But “open minds” is what Jesus was talking about IMO, when he spoke of wineskins. You can’t learn His teachings about the kingdom, without letting go of the worldly mindsets that were bestowed upon us by our heredity and environment in the culture.

In any case, the hallmark of an intellectual (a cute one or not ;)) isn’t that they “allow more options” or that they’re not “more restrictive”, but that they offer good, reasoned arguments. So far, your argument is “I have certain talents and experiences, and this has appeared to have worked for me, so I think I’ll recommend it as a good option in general.” :hmmm:

Aww, that’s not fair. I thought I was really clear that I was not shoving this at everyone, and you went and selectively quoted me … and … and … :crying:

Actually, no. Your citation didn’t at all address the issue I raised (i.e., that the Joint Declaration is not accepted by all Lutherans). You see, if one was self-taught, and only read references off the internet (and was not taught by a reputable Catholic source), he would have read your citation and concluded, “wow! All Lutherans agree with the Catholic Church regarding justification!”… and that would be a huge misunderstanding. Luckily, I provided you with information that you didn’t have and weren’t (ostensibly) aware of, so you didn’t have to hope to stumble upon it in Google at some point in the future. Right? :thumbsup:

My point was this. I gave you my references, and you can draw your own conclusions. I gave you the tools to debug what I said. I thought I was helping you make your case, by being wrong myself, that you should check the references. Didn’t you say I was?

If you go and read what is on the Catholic website and still draw a wrong conclusion, that’s beyond the scope of what I can fix or anticipate.

But I consider it an act of love when someone finds where I am wrong and takes the time to explain it to me. Maybe they do it for pride or anger or just to “instruct the ignorant” but whatever it is, I would much rather be corrected than persist in wrong. Plus I like to be careful how I state things, and your perception showed me a few “chinks in my armor” as it were.

Also I appreciate your taking the time to look those up at all, because what that does it tell me that you took an interest in the “thought seeds” I was trying to plant. And that both does me honor and humbles me, because with all the information we get from the Internet, you chose to look at the items I offered. :o But by reviewing and correcting me, you “made them your own” by taking what I said and throwing out the parts I was wrong. It’s like you winnow the chaff from the wheat before you bring it to storage. :thumbsup:

MS


#18

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

God is the Final Judge, of course.

From the passage we can perceive that we might be involved in speaking before to against the accused.

Some Judgements are positive. There is a crown in heaven for the obedient to God.

Regardless we might find comfort in knowing God is a Just God.


#19

I advocate interdenominational Bible study.

It is the only place where rational people meet to discuss scripture.

Oh, and this forum as well! This is the best forum I’ve seen for Christian discussion.

God Bless!


#20

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