Biblical Defense of Purgatory


#1

Does anyone have any proof or Bible references for Purgatory? :confused:


#2

Check here for starters.

– Mark L. Chance.


#3

:wink:

[quote=john charles]Does anyone have any proof or Bible references for Purgatory? :confused:
[/quote]

Okay, I’m going to belabor a point, but it’s not directed at you, dear jc. Just wanted to warn ya’ll. :wink:

The Bible is NOT a proof-text of beliefs.

It is the witness to Christ and his Church. There are verses that SUPPORT the teaching of purgatory and every other teaching of the Church but there are no proof-texts for any of them because…

The Bible is NOT a proof-text of beliefs.

Others will no doubt give you some Bible verses to support this teaching, but you should consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get the real dope.

Blessings on everyone! :smiley:


#4

I pose to you this question:

If there is only heaven or hell, why pray for the dead?

If they are in hell, no amount of prayer is going to help them.
If they are in heaven, they need no prayer.


#5

There is no biblical defense for purgatory.

Hence the need for extrabiblical oral tradition, or reference to non inspired catechism. :frowning:


#6

Try HERE as well.


#7

[quote=kaycee]There is no biblical defense for purgatory.

Hence the need for extrabiblical oral tradition, or reference to non inspired catechism. :frowning:
[/quote]

What a load of bunk kaycee!

There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does tis not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that in both these passages it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…

The only people who allege this kind of bunk are those who will not honestly consider anything that is “Catholic” in the Word of God. It’s the old “I’ve got my mind made up, so don’t try to confuse me with the facts” bit. :rolleyes:
Pax vobiscum,


#8

"Hi all!

Our prayer, the Mourner’s Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased’s soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner’s Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.
Look at ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning
The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm)::slight_smile:

After the avelut [mourning] period is complete, the family of the deceased is not permitted to continue formal mourning; however, there are a few continuing acknowledgments of the decedent. Every year, on the anniversary of the death, family members observe the deceased’s Yahrzeit (Yiddish, lit. “anniversary”). On the Yahrzeit, sons recite Kaddish and take an aliyah (bless the Torah reading) in synagogue if possible, and all mourners light a candle in honor of the decedent that burns for 24 hours. In addition, during services on Yom Kippur, Shemini Atzeret, the last day of Passover, and Shavu’ot, after the haftarah reading in synagogue, close relatives recite the mourner’s prayer, Yizkor (“May He remember…”) in synagogue. Yahrzeit candles are also lit on those days.

(…).

Kaddish
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner’s prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins “May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days …” and continues in much that vein. The real mourner’s prayer is E-l Maleh Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d’s injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."


#9

[quote=kaycee]There is no biblical defense for purgatory.

Hence the need for extrabiblical oral tradition, or reference to non inspired catechism. :frowning:
[/quote]

If you weren’t so hard nosed about it I could bury this thread in biblical proofs, as well as those of the Church Fathers who had more insight into the Apostolic teachings in their fingernail than most protestants have in their whole 400 yr history.

BTW:
Does that “EXTRABIBLICAL” teaching of “27 books” not 28, not 26 ring a bell? Are you betting your soul on it?
**Yes or no.

Oh, and where is YOUR biblical defense for dragging Hebrews into your so-called bible?
Like I’ve said many times:
Protestant: One who memorizes 1/3 of the Bible, denies 1/3 of the Bible, and never reads 1/3 of the bible.

**


#10

I like the post that highlights the fact that we shouldn’t proof-text the verses in the Bible. This persons theological position is sound and a good lesson to those who don’t understand that Scripture is a cohesive whole and to use one verse and build a theological argument from it apart from the rest of Scripture is foolish.

Catholic.com has a good article about purgatory with a multitude of Scriptural references e.g. Rev 21:27, 1 Pet 3:19, Heb 12:14, Mt 18:21-35.

Click here: Purgatory

An easy way to explain what purgatory is, especially to Protestants is to say that purgatory is the final process of our sanctification, which simply means the process of making us holy which involves purging in this life or the next, hence the name “purgatory” and is completed on those with sanctifying grace.

Protestants (some of them being I was once one and talk to many often) know what sanctification means, thus we can explain to them that for most ,if not nearly all of us, do have some sort of “sin” that we simply don’t relinquish or fully repent of and totally give to the Lord and since we die with that venial sin and absolutely NO sin can enter heaven Rev 21:27, we can conclude that there has to be some sort of purgation in order for us to be purged from that sin which is what 1 Pet 3:19 is speaking of, in that we are saved even though through fire.
Purgatory is the final step of our sanctification and as Catholics we certainly believe that our justification and sanctification are joined together and we are being justified as we are being sanctified and that all of us will be purged in this life or the next.

In Matthew 18:21-35, Matthew (who was a tax collector) uses a monitary metaphor about paying back or being in debt to what we have done. Certainly when God forgives our sins we are forgiven of the eternal consequences of that sin but their are temporal (venial) sine which are carried to the eternal; this is what purgatory is a final purging of our sins. It is a total act of pure love from God in which He refines us into gold to enter that beatific vision of heaven.

It’s the old Midas adage, pay me now or pay me later,(that is for venial sins only, dying in mortal sin is for the eternally damned).

Bishopite


#11

Church Militant,

Salve in Nominie Christi, I respectfully disagree, I shortened your quotes for space

============
Begin with Matthew 12:32, … Does tis not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? … So…Impicit “purgatory”

“the age to come” is a Jewish reference to the Messianic Age, which is not Heaven, but the time when the Messiah would reign on earth and there would be a resurrection of the flesh.
===========

1st Corinthians 3:15 … cannot refer to heaven or hell … definition of Purgatory.

We agree that a mans works will be tested and tried, but he himself will not undergo punishment for sins, we take the phrase “as by fire” as a metaphor. So it’s only the mans works being tested, but the man only barely escaped judgment.
======

1st Peter 3:18-20 … and 1st Peter 4:6 … Note that in both these passages it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

Which assuming your interpretation is correct, would only apply to a past event. “he preached” not “he continues to preach” and “was the gospel preached” not the “gospel is continually being preached”. If there was a "prison of some sort before the ascension, there does not seem to be so now. And if there is now, these verses would still only apply to something in the past. These verses MIGHT go either way, but most likely do not refer directly to a purgatory.
===========

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46

You know we don’t accept this one as canonical right? :wink: So if it is then maybe you have something, but as for convincing protestants, the most it shows is that there was a pre-Christian idea of praying for the dead.
=========

1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, … He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…

He doesn’t endorse it either, I think he was using there own practice against them to argue for the resurrection. This is actually a highly debatable passage, and can be taken in several ways, many of which do not involve vicariously baptizing those who are dead. Assuming that your interpretation is correct, how would this prove a purgatory?? What would you be arguing this Baptism do?? Something similar to the Mormon use of this passage, those who died without Baptism are in prison until the have been baptized? If this is so, then why would there be a Catholic belief in “Baptism by desire”, that would make this idea redundant. That would seem to create more problems then it would solve.
=======

The only people who allege this kind of bunk are those who will not honestly consider anything that is “Catholic” in the Word of God. It’s the old “I’ve got my mind made up, so don’t try to confuse me with the facts” bit.
Pax vobiscum,

ouch, Pax Domini vobiscum etiam.


#12

[quote=Knight4God]Church Militant,

Salve in Nominie Christi, I respectfully disagree, I shortened your quotes for space

============

[/quote]

Just some friendly advise:
You might not want to pick a debate with CM. He is hard core catholic and has more time than money.
Plus he has a backup crew bigger than Michael Jacskon’s.

You could spend months just trying to convince him that you are anything close to a knight 4 God.
Oh, and respectfully to you, if you can’t prove or even declare that your interpretations are infallible, they are worth…how much? If they have a possiblity of being erroneous, then why would anyone take them seriously? If they could contain error ie fallible, then why would I or any sane person bet their soul on it?


#13

Imagine that you received a call from God today that He was coming to your house for dinner tomorrow.

I’m betting that most of us would clean our house, make any minor repairs that needed to be done, get something special to prepare for dinner, and shower and dress before receiving our special company and eating together.

Purgatory gives us the opportunity to review our souls, clean them up through repentance and reparation, and prepare to meet Our Lord and Savior face-to-face, so we can share in the eternal marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.


#14

If only I could find that article by a Methodist pastor regarding Purgatory, and how he defends it (would make any Catholic apologist proud really)…


#15

[quote=Milliardo]If only I could find that article by a Methodist pastor regarding Purgatory, and how he defends it (would make any Catholic apologist proud really)…
[/quote]

If I just could write here all the arguments of Catholic priests against purgatory, you would be very proud…

Take this one from a Catholic priest. He says that we can’t understand what it means to have a LIMITED time in the spiritual world after death. How can we accept a LIMITED time in purgatory, when it is for spirits, and it’s supposed to be after death?

This is just one argument…

If you just can read the many documents written by Catholic priests, sent to Rome in order to change this article about purgatory, you would be very proud…

The Bible doesn’t talk about any purgatory other than the blood of Jesus Christ that can save you here and now. Now is the day of salvation. Don’t be deceived by Satan.

THEOPHILUS†


#16

QUOTE=THEOPHILUS†]If I just could write here all the arguments of Catholic priests against purgatory, you would be very proud…

Take this one from a Catholic priest. He says that we can’t understand what it means to have a LIMITED time in the spiritual world after death. How can we accept a LIMITED time in purgatory, when it is for spirits, and it’s supposed to be after death?

This is just one argument…

What priest? What is his name?

If you just can read the many documents written by Catholic priests, sent to Rome in order to change this article about purgatory, you would be very proud…

What documents? How many? I’ll read them.

[quote]The Bible doesn’t talk about any purgatory other than the blood of Jesus Christ that can save you here and now.

The blood of Jesus Christ is purgatory?

Don’t be deceived by Satan.
[/quote]

I’m not. Don’t you be either. God Bless.


#17

Take this one from a Catholic priest. He says that we can’t understand what it means to have a LIMITED time in the spiritual world after death. How can we accept a LIMITED time in purgatory, when it is for spirits, and it’s supposed to be after death?

This is just one argument…

What priest? What is his name? By this logic, how can we accept anything that happens after death? How can we understand eternity? Heaven and hell and eterntiy are for “spirits” also.

If you just can read the many documents written by Catholic priests, sent to Rome in order to change this article about purgatory, you would be very proud…

What documents? How many? Written by whom? Why would we be proud?

The Bible doesn’t talk about any purgatory other than the blood of Jesus Christ that can save you here and now.

The blood of Jesus Christ is purgatory?

Don’t be deceived by Satan

.

I’m not. Don’t you be either.

God bless.


#18

[quote=marvin]What priest? What is his name? By this logic, how can we accept anything that happens after death? How can we understand eternity? Heaven and hell and eterntiy are for “spirits” also.
[/quote]

Heaven and hell are ETERNAL, and not limited in time.

I don’t remember the name of the priest ( actually, he’s a bishop, I guess ). I’ll tell you if I find out the name.

What documents? How many? Written by whom? Why would we be proud?

Written by bishops like the one I mentioned above.

The blood of Jesus Christ is purgatory?

Yes:

To purge = To remove (impurities and other elements) by or as if by cleansing.

“the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” ( 1 John 1:7 )

All sin, not just some kinds of sins.

THEOPHILUS†


#19

Theo,

If a man dies with sin on his soul, as almost ALL of us will, since no sin or imperfection can enter heaven, we will be cleansed of the the sin by the blood of christ either literally or figurativly. Am I correct in saying this?


#20

[quote=Didi]Imagine that you received a call from God today that He was coming to your house for dinner tomorrow.

I’m betting that most of us would clean our house, make any minor repairs that needed to be done, get something special to prepare for dinner, and shower and dress before receiving our special company and eating together.

Purgatory gives us the opportunity to review our souls, clean them up through repentance and reparation, and prepare to meet Our Lord and Savior face-to-face, so we can share in the eternal marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.
[/quote]

Didi,
I loved your analogy!!! This is very well written. Amen, I know I would be rushing around to make everything perfect for our Lord, either for dinner or to join him in heaven.
BlestOne


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