Bob Sungenis's web site says John XXIII was a modernist

On Sungenis’ web site he was asked about the late John XXIII. Sungenis has stated that, under Pius XII, John XXIII (roncalli at the time) was deemed a modernist or at least the file in Pius XII’s office labeled him as a modernist—is that true?? did cardinal Roncalli’s file say he was a modernist?? has anyone heard this before?

Heard that before… it just didn’t send up red flags… history will discern why.

At least with the Sungenis site… you get references and footnotes, and support data… too many other sites shoot from the hip with silly opinions.,

[quote=tpillip]On Sungenis’ web site he was asked about the late John XXIII. Sungenis has stated that, under Pius XII, John XXIII (roncalli at the time) was deemed a modernist or at least the file in Pius XII’s office labeled him as a modernist—is that true?? did cardinal Roncalli’s file say he was a modernist?? has anyone heard this before?
[/quote]

Frist, Where is this file?

Second, Really who cares what is in a file? If the Church did not declare him a heretic, then he isn’t one.

[quote=MrS] Heard that before… it just didn’t send up red flags… history will discern why.

At least with the Sungenis site… you get references and footnotes, and support data… too many other sites shoot from the hip with silly opinions.,
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Doesn’t matter how much supporting data you have. He is calling a Pope a heretic. The SSPX websites have references and footnotes and support data, but that doesn’t make their arguments any more valid.

This is nothing but a silly opinion. Really it is worse, it is libeling a past pope and the whole office of the Holy Father. It is also gossip as the Church has never made any such statement.

I’ve heard it contended that Blessed John XXIII was actually a theological conservative and that is why it is puzzling that so many dissenters/liberals invoke his name, ie., “If we only had a pope like good Pope John,” and “if only he had lived.” The conjecture is that contraception would have been permitted, women priests, etc., but that those things would have never happened under Blessed John, due to his theological conservatism. His public face was due to the fact that he was a nice man and that he’d spent his public ministry as a Church diplomat (as opposed to the role held by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger before he was elected Pope), but I suspect that he would be a bit startled at the stuff suggested by some Western Catholics in North America and Europe.

Mr. Sungeis is excessively traditionalist. I don’t know if he has gone over to SSPX but he is heavily traditionalist. Though much of it is very good, his work is tainted. About the time he started showing his colors EWTN stopped having him on.

Pray for him.

Blessings

I guees I am just curious at to what led Pius XII’s file to say that he was a modernist–(if its true)

this is typical…

the thread starts by referencing a quote of a Pope about another Pope. And then the thread developes by avoiding the query and instead criticizing the apologist who simply presented the information for discussion.

As for EWTN “dropping” Sungenis… I can only encourage you to ask why, and then reconsider your position.

By the way… those critical of the website www.catholicintl.com failed (as usual) to present good cause for their “opinions”. :hmmm:

And, as usual, the buzz word is once again traditionalist - presented in a way as to suggest it appeals to a fringe.

I suggest anyone who cares, should read the new Pope’s first few homilies… and see where he stands (hint: look for a return of the liturgy of reverence, and a lessening of the ligturgy of fellowship)

[quote=MrS]this is typical…

the thread starts by referencing a quote of a Pope about another Pope. And then the thread developes by avoiding the query and instead criticizing the apologist who simply presented the information for discussion.

[/quote]

Which is a very good thing to do. We should always look at the sources of information to help us in evaluating the validity of that information.

As this “apologist” says that the information is found in a “file” that the pope had makes it seem a bit fishy to me.

How would you judge this “information”, “Pope John Paul II had a file that listed Bob Sungenis as a schismatic traditionalist”?

my “judgment” might be thus: the file was most likely given to JPII by one of the small group of “well intentioned” but seriously flawed posters at CA:whistle:

I plead ignorance here, because he isn’t an apologist I’ve read. Is he a “traditional” Catholic in good standing with the Church (attends an Indult, etc.) or a rad-trad formally identified with schism (either SSPX or Sedevacantism)? I wish we could be clear about terms, but I guess that’s impossible without a lexicon to which everyone would subscribe.

hE IS IN GOOD STANDing–he is just traditional and prefers the old latin mass -----

Suggested reading:

Not By Bread Alone by Robert Sungenis

then decide how orthodox his position is.

Also:

Not By Faith Alone and Not By Scripture Alone

His shorter work on justification is How Can I Get to Heaven which is both concise and easy to read and understand.

[quote=tpillip]hE IS IN GOOD STANDing–he is just traditional and prefers the old latin mass -----
[/quote]

His website got a RED-DANGER rating for fidelity from CatholicCulture website reviews.

He is not a good source of information.

MrS

this is typical…

the thread starts by referencing a quote of a Pope about another Pope. And then the thread developes by avoiding the query and instead criticizing the apologist who simply presented the information for discussion.

I agree people need to calm down over Sungenis. He’s a good smart guy, and one of the few who isnt afraid to piss off protestants or Catholics. Its called freedom of opinion backed with originality and smarts.

[quote=DeFide]His website got a RED-DANGER rating for fidelity from CatholicCulture website reviews.

He is not a good source of information.
[/quote]

I agree that some of his more recent ideas have been questionable, such as the whole geo-centric thing, but I have to say that his ***Not By Faith Alone, Not By Scripture Alone, ***and Not by Bread Alone are some of the best, most comprehensive apologetic books on the subjects that I have seen. I have read all three and see absolutely nothing in them that contradicts or impugns the Magesterium’s teaching in any way.

well said 'dude

I believe Sungenis would also get a hugh RED FLAG from Alpha & Omega Ministry. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/6/6_15_12.gif

[quote=MrS]well said 'dude

I believe Sungenis would also get a hugh RED FLAG from Alpha & Omega Ministry. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/6/6_15_12.gif
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Who are they? And I very much like your signature.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Who are they? And I very much like your signature.
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Its James Whites home page. It is supposedly anti every denomination/religion that isnt reformed, but if you look there is far more anti-C articles than anything else.

question. if pope john 23 is questionable, why did 2 popes select the name john paul??

Yes, it was questioned early on in his career. He was unable to get many good appointments in his early career as well because of this suspicion. He later became pope. These suspicions were unfounded.

It must be remembered that Vatican II is entirely a good thing. Evil, however, in some case did take advantage of Vatican II and used it as an excuse to push certain agendas.

If Vatican II were followed to the letter, the mess that many parishes are in these days would not exist.

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