true. and you don’t drink the unblessed wine as regular wine.
ok, but. If someone gave me a Lutheran Altar Book to read as a regular book. then what? it’s a book to me, where my sacramentary is my altar book and is holy to me. do I hold it as a sacramental from a other rite? it’s like if a copy of my sacramentary was given to a lutheran church.
hmm, I think I just talked myself into a corner…
true. and you don’t drink the unblessed wine as regular wine.
Someone may be making a movie or a play about a Saint or priest and needs chalices, patens and vestments for costumes and props. Perhaps someone is an art collector and thinks the craftsmanship is worthy of displaying in an exhibit or in a private gallery.
The point being, there are other (albeit non-ordinary) uses for these items, and more importantly (and the primary point I’ve been making) is that they don’t roll of the assembly line already blessed and consecrated. It is the consecration, not the manufacturing, that designates items for sacred use and not profane use.
Actually, as crazy as it may sound, I know some people who like the taste of sacramental wine. I’ve actually been given sacramental wine as a gift in the past (and I would imagine the wine label “The Pope’s Wine” conforms to liturgical norms for sacramental wine as well as from the “Châteauneuf-du-Pape”, originally the Pope’s own vineyard).
Granted I’m new and I mean this with no disrespect, but if this Gospel is held, read, and cherished by this dear boy, then how can anyone say having it his possession or not being able to have it blessed is wrong?
How would a blessing encouraging what he gains from those scriptures be a bad thing at all? Gosh, I would think we’d all be lined up to encourage this blessing for a teenager’s heart!
For him to be so excited about it, isn’t that a blessing in itself and one that we should be rejoicing about rather than condemning it?
Isn’t it important for us to remember that an inanimate object itself isn’t sacred? It’s the meaning the person himself places on that item that makes it sacred. Granted respect is one thing, but what some are saying here is idol worship.
If someone uses a chalice and paten at home; it’s just a cup and dish. It has no reverence or meaning. After being blessed for Liturgical use, it then becomes sacred and set apart for it’s intended use. It then represents vessels to hold our Lord. Until then, it’s just pieces of metal. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t need to be blessed!
The Book of the Gospels is primarily intended for proclamation within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (or, in some cases, a Liturgy of the Word apart from Mass). It’s function is liturgical. Again, I stand by my statement that, provided that it is the current edition, it should be donated to a parish that could not otherwise afford to have one.
The same holds true for the chalice and the paten. You would not dare use a gold chalice meant for the Mass at your next dinner party, right? Each of these is made for a specific purpose.
With all due respect, in it’s present form – it’s just a book (exerts from the Bible). In it’s present state it isn’t sacred other than just respecting the words it contains. The object itself doesn’t become sacred until it is blessed for, and used in, Liturgical use.
It’s a book that contains great wisdom, knowledge, and honors God. I think the logical question would be: Why would God be displeased if a teenage boy was thrilled for the opportunity to be able to read it at his leisure? Doesn’t it honor God more that this boy ‘choose’ this book out of all the millions of other books at that store? How do you know that God didn’t put it on this boys heart that need to have this book?
I’m wondering where it is written that it is sinful for regular folks to have anything that honors God?
Additionally, items like the Book of Gospels, chalices, patens, liturgical garments, etc. aren’t manufactured as sacred, their manufactured to make a profit. If they truly were sacred items (in their new off the line condition, unblessed, unused, etc.), then they would be offered at cost; not a 50-100%+ markup.
With all due respect, I do not know if you have an understanding of the importance of these implements. The Book of the Gospels s not intended for private use in someone’s home, nor are the paten and the chalice.
While it is laudable that the young man decided to purchase it, it really does not belong in someone’s private home since it is for liturgical use. It’s main and most important use is for the proclamation of the Gospel.
Remember the story of the giant hand that was writing on the wall in the Book of Daniel. The Babylonians took out the sacred instruments of the Temple of the Lord and were using them for what amounted to a glorified dinner party. This action greatly displeased the Lord, hence the appearance of the giant hand that spelled the end of the road for the Babylonians.
Given the price of gold, even gold-plated items, the price is not so much of a huge mark-up because what is used is precious metal. Furthermore, there are chalices that are actually hand-made and true works of sacred art created by artisans. Even the Papal vestments run into several thousands of dollars. Thus, with all due respect, even your argument there does not make much sense.
If these items are so estimable and sacred straight from the manufacturer, why do they need to be blessed and consecrated before use in Liturgy?
Their primary use is for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. With all due respect, that is a fact that seems lost on a few people in this thread. These are not made for profane use. Again, with all seriousness, would you use a golden chalice and a paten at your next dinner party? I would think not. Furthermore, you cannot sell something that is blessed. That would be committing the sin of simony.
We owned a Christian Bookstore in Florida (For Heaven’s Sake Christian Supply). Believe me, the markup is HUGE on all church items; especially Catholic Liturgical items. The manufactures don’t manufacture these items because of their love of God, to show off their great workmanship, or meet the needs of the Christian community, they do it make a profit. The other things are secondary, way down the line.
Although I understand what your saying about the respect owed to Liturgical items, I can’t seems to get passed that these are inanimate objects that had no due care in manufacturing them and held no sacred attachment to them.
Even if the intent is Liturgical use, they still are not holy until they are blessed. As has been brought up, why would they be blessed if they were already sacred?
How is it profane for a teenage boy to have great joy in having the Word of God that he can use for his daily walk with our Lord and Savior??? How would this be displeasing to God? You have not answered those questions.
I would not use a chalice and paten at a dinner party because I think that would look just plain stupid, but not because it comes sacred from the manufacter. *If it had been blessed, then that’s another thing entirely. * But it has no sacred value until it is blessed and set apart for it’s intended use. Until then, it’s just cup and dish. Anything else is idol worship.
Your example from the book of Daniel makes my point. Those were sacred items because they had already been used for worship. We’re talking here about items who have never even seen the inside of a church, let alone be used for Liturgical purposes.
Again, I do not think that you fully understand the point, nor have you answered my question. The Book of the Gospels was not made for private ownership. Granted, if it is an out of date copy, it can remain in the possession of the priest for study. However, if it is current, it belongs in the Church.
While it is laudable that the young man wanted the Book of the Gospels, it is meant for use in the Mass, not for someohe’s private use. If he wants to mediarte on Sacred Scripture, a Bible is suffice. If he wants to meditate on the readings, then, he should purchase a daily missal. But, what he should do is to present the Book of the Gospels to an impoverished parish that would certainly make fitting use of it.
A Christian bookstore is different from a Catholic bookstore in that what is sold at a church goods store is primarily intended for sacred use. It is not “idol worship”, as you seem to want to call it. The issue of the “markup” has no bearing here. Again, would you use a chalice and a paten for your dinner parties? I would hope not.
With all due respect, you seem to not understand that there are things that are intended and reserved for sacred use, regardless of the markup.
They don’t come from the manufacturer blessed! No one is talking about selling blessed items, but unblessed items – that’s the entire point! Do you think that every parish in the world is complicit in the sin of simony? Because it is either they or a patron who pays for these items – the manufacturers are certainly not donating them.
Also, throughout history many people would indeed use golden chalices and dishes for dinner. I can see even today those with means using such items (though, maybe European royalty or other such wealthy people).
Do you think the wonderful people who bring us quality entertainment in the form of films such as
Karol: A Man Who Became Pope'', Therese’’, etc., etc. are all complicit in sin for their non-liturgical use of these liturgical items (these films depict scenes of priests in vestments performing liturgical acts).
The items used in Liturgy traditionally were items from the community set aside for liturgical use. Chalices and ciboria were top of the line dinnerware, vestments were top of the line clothing, candlesticks, etc. All were more-or-less everyday items set aside for a singular purpose, but without that setting aside would have been used in everyday life.
When during the manufacturing process does this setting aside actually take place, according to you?
If these items are already set aside for sacred use, why then do they need to be blessed or consecrated? For the items to be consecrated before their liturgical use would be redundant if they came from the manufacturer already sacred.
Once more, it is the consecration and blessing, and nothing else, that sets asides anything (whether liturgical item or person) for the exclusive purposes of God.
Again, what I am saying is that, with all due respect, neither you nor the previous poster seem to understand the whole point. Unless you can show me where Macy’s, Dillard’s, Saks, Nordstrom’s or even Wal-Mart would have chalices, patens and ciborria on sale for dinner ware, neither of you have made your point. The chalices, ciborria, patens and the like sold by church goods stores are sold specifically for liturgical use. That is the purpose for which these items are meant.
While a liturgical book is indeed intended to be used in sacred worship, I disagree with the idea that the act of using a liturgical book outside the sacred liturgy somehow is automatically disrespectful, or worse profane, that should be stopped. Besides using the Divine Office books when praying the Office, I also use it to read the writings of Fathers or portions of Scripture when I couldn’t pray the Office of Readings. Some churches place a copy of the Lectionary for the use of the faithful outside Mass. Liturgical books for the Order of Installation of the New Roman Pontiff and the Rite of Conclave are readily available from the Vatican bookstore… surely no one else will be using these books liturgically: should these all be donated back to the Vatican?
If a child uses a Book of Gospels to read and meditate on the gospels privately, surely the book is still used in a good, religious and spirtually beneficial purpose. As far as I know, there aren’t any Church regulations or canons prohibiting such religious use of liturgical books. But if Benedictgal can point us to any such regulations, it might move the discussion forward beyond personal opinions and idiosyncracies.
Do you have any documents that say such items are set aside for sacred use straight from the manufacturer – because I think that the requirement that any item for liturgical use must be consecrated and the words of consecration (from the Pontificale Romanum) make it plain that it is from the moment of consecration and not before that such items are deemed sacred. (see here)
Also, since Scripture is intended primarily to be proclaimed in Liturgy (see here), what makes the Book of the Gospels by itself (not considering after it is consecrated) more valuable than the Bible as a whole or a booklet showing the readings for the day for a year?
Here is something about sacred vessels from Redemptionis Sacramentum:
- Sacred Vessels
[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.205 The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,206 so that honor will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.207
[118.] Before they are used, sacred vessels are to be blessed by a Priest according to the rites laid down in the liturgical books.208 It is praiseworthy for the blessing to be given by the diocesan Bishop, who will judge whether the vessels are worthy of the use to which they are destined.
Even prior to their blessing, the Church already refers to these as sacred vessels. Thus, the arguments made regarding chalices and patens are pretty much moot, as I read Redemptionis Sacramentum.
Now, insofar as the Book of the Gospels, even though I have not found anything yet to answer peregrinus, I do believe that the same principle would apply. It is not so much about personal idiosyncracies as it is to honoring the intent of the liturgical implements.
That’s not how I read it. I read it in the sense as I would say:
Before it is distributed to the faithful, the Precious Blood is consecrated by a Priest according to the rites laid down in the liturgical books.
But, certainly it is just wine and not God even before the Eucharistic Prayer.
Again, with all due respect, you are missing the point:
Before they are used, sacred vessels are to be blessed by a Priest
Even though they are not yet blessed, the documents are already calling them sacred vessels.
Furthermore, regarding your assertion of the Book of the Gospels, I believe it to be incorrect. During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we do not proclaim the readings from a Bible, but, from a Lectionary. The deacon and/or priest does not proclaim the Gospel from a Bible, but, from the Book of the Gospels. In fact, in many occasions, the Book of the Gospels is incensed. In Papal Masses, after the Gospel is proclaimed, the Holy Father blesses the faithful with the Book of the Gospels, not a Bible.
I already showed you how I read this differently than you are. You seem to be reading it as conferring the title on the items before consecration and I see it as referring the past action to the now consecrated items. And we obviously both think our own reading of it is correct.
Umm…the Lectionary is just (essentially) a specially arranged Bible with a particular translation (a unique translation which wouldn’t have been necessary if certain translators had followed certain documents, but we won’t go there :p). The basic fact is that what is proclaimed at a Liturgy is not a different set of Scriptures than what is found in a Bible.
Do you also hold that lectors who have their own copy of a Lectionary to prepare for the upcoming Liturgies are somehow in the wrong for such private ownership?
Actually, I do not know any who do own a lectionary. What the folks who proclaim the readings use is a manual that gives pronunciation guides and such. Unfortunately, because it is published by LTP, there are also some very strange “spiritual” intepretations that sometimes run contrary to the Church that are included in the sidebar. You may actually consider putting together a similar manual for publication that excises the weird reflections (but, that is for another thread). What I have used is my monthly Magnificat to prepare for the readings.