Born again through Jesus and Mary?


#1

The following quote states that people are born again through Jesus and Mary. Is this what the Roman Catholic Church teaches?


#2

What is the context of the snippet of quote that you have given, please?


#3

And if this hasn’t already been suggested. . .if you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches. . .please read through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There are several on-line versions, some with ‘search’ functions so that you can ‘narrow’ down your search to “Jesus and Mary”, etc.

It may take you a few days to read through but you do yourself–and us–no favor in cherry picking bits of quote and starting threads over “Is this what the Catholic Church teaches?” (Implying that ‘this’ is hogwash at best and heresy at worst).

In short. . .you want to know what the Church teaches? Go read the Catechism and then come back if you have any questions after you have read it and ask them. One. At. A. Time. Please.

Thank you.


#4

Thank you for your response but it would have been more helpful if you answered my question.

.


#5

NO.


#6

Helpful? How can I answer your question when you didn’t answer mine?
How do you expect people to answer something ‘incomplete’, out of nowhere, that you just posted as a ‘hearsay’. You didn’t even give a link to the thread where this was stated.

**What **is the context of the ‘snippet of quote’ that you posted?

If, for example, you post something like, "Does the Bible state, in exactly these words, “There is no god?”. . .a quick search of the Bible discloses that yes, these words are there. . .however [size=2]the words right before those are “The fools says in his heart: (these is no god)”. The question you would have posed was ‘incomplete’ as it was, and needs the context to be answered correctly.[/size]

When you just pull words a poster has stated, without context, I have no idea what the poster had said that this was part of, and whether or not the poster was trying to express something which is perfectly appropriate and correct, or not. That is not very fair to the poster or to us either, is it?.

We have no idea if this is something that ‘stands alone’ like this, or whether you have managed to pull out a facsimile of “there is no god” from a post while ignoring the “The fool says in his heart” part that the poster had put but you somehow ‘missed.’

So please answer the question: What is the context of the snippet of quote you posted?


#7

click on the blue arrow tab on the quote next to the name and it will direct you to that quote.


#8

It is not very fair to post something incomplete and ask people to comment on it.

Certainly, the Catholic Church does not teach that “there is no god” for example, even though those words are "found in the bible’ (but not found ‘standing alone.’). As far as being born again through Jesus and Mary. . .the Church teaches that one is born again through water and the Spirit in one’s baptism . .but the idea of being born again through the Incarnation can also be a ‘part’ of that. Without Jesus being born of Mary, He would not have suffered and died for us and we would not have the opportunity to be born again in baptism.

So in a sense, Mary’s’ fiat’ has contributed to our salvation (No Mary, No Jesus). Did she herself suffer and die for us? No. . .and nobody said she did. Is she God? No, and nobody said she was.

That doesn’t mean that she had absolutely ‘nothing’ to do with salvation. Do you think that when we accept God’s grace that we, in that acceptance, are not playing a part in our salvation? Do you think that God saves. . .or d-mns. . .us 'in spite of ourselves?"

So please, tell us where this ‘statement’ came from. A link would be nice.


#9

Click on the blue arrow in the quote to see the context of the comment. You are a long termer on this forum and you don’t know this??


#10

Thanks, saved.

Of course, my advice stands to emerald. If you want to know what the Church teaches about Jesus and Mary, and about being ‘born again’, you really should spend a few weeks with the catechism.

And if you have questions about what any poster says, it might be a more charitable idea to send them a PM first. . . and to wait a reasonable amount of time for them to respond, especially if they happen to be off-line or get busy with ‘life’ and don’t get back to you right away.


#11

Thanks for your answer. So I now know that the comments in the quote I referred to in op are not the Roman Catholic Churches teaching.


#12

It would be pointless to have this forum if all you do is refer someone to the catechism when they ask a simple question about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.


#13

Why, thank you, emerald.

Saved was a little nicer about it.

Yes, you know, some of us over 50 who didn’t grow up with computers or have anybody ‘teaching’ us but just sort of had to learn on our own might not know certain things that others ‘knew’ when they were in kindergarten playing “Oregon Trail”.

Then again, we might know other things in other subjects. Or we might (even though we’re not ‘computer savvy’) be faster typists, or better spellers, etc. Or we might not.

Now that I have read the context, I think that James was (in the context of a long thread and related to several subjects) trying to make a point about the “New Adam” and the “New Eve” (Jesus and Mary), and that because we are now, as it were ‘children’ of a New Adam and New Eve, through baptism, which removes original sin, that just as their DNA was ‘purified’ at the beginning, our souls become ‘purified’ from original sin in Baptism.

And of course, without Jesus’ being incarnate in the Virgin Mary, there would not have been salvation through His death and resurrection, nor salvation for us through Baptism, right?

We would still be under the covenant of the “old Adam” and the “old Eve.”


#14

It would be pointless to have this forum if all you do is refer someone to the catechism when they ask a simple question about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

With respect, emerald, it is pointless to have this forum if posters come on here, without having tried to educate themselves as to what the Catholic Church teaches, and ask what they ‘say’ is a ‘simple question about what the Church teaches’. . .first, it may not be ‘simple’ at all.

And why, emerald, would you accept the word of a poster if you yourself do not ‘know’ the teaching? Now, saved is responding to you, and you ‘like’ his answer. . .but what if saved is wrong? (I’m not saying he is, but what if? How do YOU know?) After all, you’re on here because you’re telling us James is all wrong (saved says so) about what he says as a Catholic about a teaching. . .so you’re not accepting what JAMES says, but you are accepting what SAVED says. . .

And in all cases, you aren’t even checking what the CATECHISM of the CHURCH says???

And then you criticize me for referring you to an authentic source, a written source, and not to a poster who says something which may or may not be correct??


#15

No.

We are born again through baptism.

You might want to re-read the book of John and also the early church fathers. It is a very clear teaching, and I am amazed that there are some who can’t accept it.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)

Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, “Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.” Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)

THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)

“I have heard, sir,” said I, “from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “You have heard rightly, for so it is.” (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2)

They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, “Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” …The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)

Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration – all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

“And [Naaman] dipped himself…seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Fragment 34)

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous…taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed…Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

…no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life.” (On Baptism 12:1)

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)

When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal…“and sons all of the Most High” [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation – that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God’s grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, “What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?” In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so …you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: “Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water…he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Recognitions 6:9)

ORIGEN (post A.D. 244)

Formerly there was Baptism, in an obscure way…now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God as He Himself says: “My flesh is truly food, and My blood is truly drink” [John 6:55]. (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)

The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit. (Commentaries on Romans 5:9)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man… Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church…then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God…since it is written, “Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (Letters 71[72]:1)

[It] behooves those to be baptized…so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God…because it is written, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (Letters 72[73]:21)

SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, “Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” …Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.

APHRAATES THE PERSION SAGE (inter A.D. 336-345)

For from Baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and He descends and rests upon the waters; and those who are baptized are clothed in Him. For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth; and then they receive the Holy Spirit…in the second birth, that through Baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit. (Treatises 6:14)

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)

If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom…for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) …Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)


#16

continued -

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul…When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, “Unless a man be born again” – and He adds the words “of water and of the Spirit” – “he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be “born again of water and Spirit” : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit’s presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism – Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved…for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism…“Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for “unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (On the Mysteries 4:20)

ST. GREGORY OF NAZIANZ (c. A.D. 330 - 389)

Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift…We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship. (Orations on Holy Baptism 40:3-4; PG 36, 361C cited in CCC [1216])

Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified * from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal because of the weakness of nature? O what a pusillanimous mother, and of how little faith! …Give your child the Trinity, that great and noble Protector. (Orations on Holy Baptism 40:17)

ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (c. A.D. 344 - 407)

Behold, they thoroughly enjoy the peacefulness of freedom who shortly before were held captive. They are citizens of the Church who were wandering in error. They have their lot in righteousness who were in the confusion of sin. For not only are they free, but holy also; not only holy, but righteous too; not only righteous, but sons also; not only sons, but heirs as well; not only heirs, but brothers even of Christ; not only brothers of Christ, but also co-heirs; not only co-heirs, but His very members; not only His members, but a temple too; not a temple only, but likewise the instruments of the Spirit.

You see how many are the benefits of Baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins; but we have enumerated ten honors. For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by sin [or though they do not have personal sins] so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be His members. (Baptismal Catecheses quoted by Augustine in Contra Iulianum 1:6:21)

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]…he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, “Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.” And again, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (6:3:15)

ST. JEROME (c. A.D. 415)

This much you must know, that Baptism forgives past sins, but it does not safeguard future justice, which is preserved by labor and industry and diligence, and depends always and above all on the mercy of God. (Dialogue Against the Pelagians 3:1)

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (c. A.D. 354 - 430)

By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive…gives also the most hidden grace of His Spirit to believers, grace which He secretly infuses even into infants…It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call Baptism itself nothing else but “salvation” and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else but “life.”

Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without Baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too.

If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this…The Sacrament of Baptism is most assuredly the Sacrament of regeneration.

(Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 c. A.D. 412)

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated…when that infant is brought to Baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in one Adam." (Letters 98:2 c. A.D. 408)

Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ – it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of Baptism. For He that said, “If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,” made an exception for them in that other statement in which He says no less generally, “Whoever confesses Me before men, I too will confess him before My Father, who is in heaven” [Matt 10:32]. (City of God 13:7 c. A.D. 420)

ST. FULGENCE OF RUSPE (c. A.D. 524)

From that time at which our Savior said: “If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven,” no one can say, without the sacrament of Baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without Baptism pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and eternal life. Anyone who receives the sacrament of Baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament…

[But one outside the Church] must, therefore, return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of Baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who…remains estranged from the Catholic Church. (The Rule of Faith 43)


#17

Actually it’s pointless of apologists to post in this forum when they don’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

I mean look at the confusion that now exists in this thread. One apologist says people aren’t born again through Jesus and Mary but another apologist says people are born again through Jesus and Mary. Then another apologist suggests that I read the catechism, how about the apologists reading it before they post in these forums so they can actually post what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.

.


#18

beeter speelers?

Heck, I have installed speel checkers on my internet broozers.

ieSpell or internet explorer.

SpellBound for firefox


#19

That’s good advice. It might clear up some of your persistent confusion. Best of all, it’s free!

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

– Mark L. Chance.


#20

That person you quoted said that it was “his take”, not that it was what the church teaches.

I think he was trying to go deeper spiritually of why Mary would have been born without sin.


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