Born again through Jesus and Mary?


#21

I like that site for searching the Catechism, because you can search a word to find the churches teachings on it.

For born again, I would search the word “baptism”, it will narrow your search. And it will point you to the paragraphs that cover what being born again means to the church.


#22

Still it highlights the confusion re the apologists understanding of what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.

Also the apologists idea that Mary was sinless created the idea that people are born again through Jesus and Mary.

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#23

I think it just highlights your confusion. It is okay though because I know you are very genuine here in your search for truth. I have noticed in all of your posts how truly genuine you are. Keep praying for guidance emeraldisle! :wink:


#24

I notice when you post to me in a thread you don’t comment on the topic of thread but you comment about me. Have you got some sort of weird fixation about me?


#25

If one person makes an incorrect statement based on some article of the faith, how is that supposed to discredit the article of faith itself. I’m sure people have made incorrect statements about the divinity of Christ, but that doesn’t disprove the divinity of Christ, does it?

I think you’re really straining at gnats here, looking for mass confusion where there is none. There is no belief in the Catholic Church that we are born again through Mary. There is no confusion on the matter. There is one statement by one person. Why not invite the person you quoted to come here and explain what he really meant?


#26

emeraldisle: Naw. No weird fixation at all. I just commented on your confusion. Peace! :smiley:


#27

A) private individuals who post here, yes, even in the Apologetics section, are just that- private individuals. There are no background checks for membership here, and we’ve all probably seen our share of trolls who enjoy throwing out the most insane statements just to stir the pot (not saying the original snippet came from one of those people). They do not speak for the Church, no matter how much they love Her. They speak for themselves, as formed by the Church, because they are private individuals.

B) Official Church documents- ones that carry the Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat, as in the case of the Catechism- speak for the Church.

C) To expect the statements of private individuals posting here to be your primary teaching tool about the Church is foolish. To call “apologists” to task for not getting doctrine correct is foolish, as the only “real” apologists around here are the ones who post on the Ask An Apologist section. And guess what? Even they might get it wrong from time to time (although, based on the official documentation they provide with their answers, it is unlikely that it happens often).

In short- if you’re questioning whether something is actual doctrine, it’s just smarter to go to the primary sources first.


#28

don’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

I mean look at the confusion that now exists in this thread. One apologist says people aren’t born again through Jesus and Mary but another apologist says people are born again through Jesus and Mary. Then another apologist suggests that I read the catechism, how about the apologists reading it before they post in these forums so they can actually post what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.:yawn: Quit :crying: and do some of your own homework.

If we tell you to look it up in the Catechism then it’s easy to do so. If you want what the Catholic Church teaches from a source that is authoritative and authentic then that is your first stop. We, “apologists” online are not authoritative, and all are at different levels of skill at apologetics.

Here! Read through this list of references and be sure to check the context and then if you still have a problem, then let us know and maybe we can discuss it.

Only the lazy will try to rely solely upon posts on an online forum to get good answers.:rolleyes:


#29

Assuming one is even looking for good answers to begin with…


#30

Agreed. A common problem. :yup:


#31

Hello CM :wave:,

:newidea: why don’t the apologists learn what the catechism says before they post on the apologetics forum?

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#32

I can’t speak for the person who posted the text you quoted, but I bet he doesn’t believe we are born again through Jesus and Mary. I say that because I have never, ever met a Catholic who believes such a thing. I suspect it was just a poor choice of language. Too bad he’s not around to explain why he wrote what he wrote.


#33

Emerald I am going to say this in public - “you are a weasel”.
If you were an honest man you would have responded to the thread that I was subscribed to and made your comments there so I could reply. Just because you painted yourself in a corner and could not refute the prior posts I was making you had to go start a new thread to try and use fellow Catholics to fight for you? That is just so weak Emeraldisle. Am I now going to have to scan every post on this forum every morning and evening just to see if you sneak in another behind the back attack?

Unreal.

The entire “born again” salvation-formula buzz phrase you fundamentalist Protestant’s use in your questions is just so far out in the weeds that its not even hardly worth responding to since its a loaded question and it implies the gross error of OSAS - and you known it. So the entire question is disingenuous to start with and just more “protestant-speak” and mass confusion. If you were man enough and honest enough to have asked me directly what the closest equivalent concept is in catechism I would have told you what I have always said - that we are born into Christ in baptism. But that does not mean we finish in Christ - like you want to make that out to mean.

The discussion you cut and pasted a snippet out of context with was about the reason Mary was born without sin. By pulling out a few sentences out of a complex progression from a 62 posting thread and putting it here is essentially bearing false witness and disingenuous. You are baiting and forming a strawman.

THIS ENITIRE THREAD IS A STRAWMAN ATTEMPT and is bannable.

Why are you here? It’s clear you are anti-Catholic and not here to learn and engage Catholics in honest debate or dialog.

Just because you could not refute the overwhelming scriptural evidence I gave you on Mary you had to go start a strawman thread? That is cowardly. Answer the mail on the response I gave you if you can rather than run away and try to slander me.

James


#34

I have not encountered the phrase “born again through Jesus and Mary” in any official Church documents but, if properly understood, the phrase does express the essential (though different and unequal) roles played by both Jesus and Mary in the redemption of mankind. By his obedient death on the cross, Jesus redeemed us. However, Jesus could not have died on the cross without the willing cooperation of the Virgin Mary who agreed to become his mother and brought him into the world.

The quote mentioned is not unlike those of early Christian writers, such as St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing about A.D. 189, concerning the Virgin Mary:
"…that pure womb which regenerates men unto God" (Against Heresies 4:33:11)

“the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” (Against Heresies 3:22:4)


#35

No.


#36

Am I a :dancing: weasel or a :bounce: weasel or maybe a :whacky: weasel ??

Am I now going to have to scan every post on this forum every morning and evening just to see if you sneak in another behind the back attack?

Posting in a public forum = a behind the back attack ???

Also you do know that if you look at a posters profile you can see all the posts they have made and all the threads they have started.

The discussion you cut and pasted a snippet out of context with was about the reason Mary was born without sin.

You clearly say in your statement that we are spiritually reborn through Jesus and Mary.

Originally Posted by CentralFLJames
Through Jesus and Mary We are spiritually reborn and the spiritual DNA (so to speak) no longer has any trace or stain of corruption or sin through this new lineage.

James

The purpose of this thread was to find out if the Roman Catholic Church teaches what you were saying in your post. Now I know that the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that people are born again through Jesus and Mary. So this thread has achieved it’s purpose.

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#37

Maybe a :tsktsk: weasel.

Or maybe a generic weasel.

Or maybe the attack of the killer weasels

I wish this site would automatically leave you a message when someone quotes one of your postings, so you would know when you might need to respond, especially when it is put into a different thread.


#38

The BVM bore all of as the the foot of the Cross.

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4012714&postcount=10


#39

It is when you don’t even give me an opportunity to respond to it in the original thread and you go create a strawman in a different thread. I had to reason to even know you had a disagreement with what i was saying since you did not even comment on it.

Don’t be ridiculous. So I am supposed to hand check every person on CAF who might not agree with me to see if they are so afraid to talk to me in PM or in the original posting thread that they spin off a new thread with no linkage in the old one or reason to go look?

So now you not only want to put words in God’s mouth and the apostles mouth as to what they say you now want to put words into other people’s mouth too? How arrogant can you be? There is not such equivalent semantic as “born again” between Catholic theology and your fundamentalist theology. Your notion of “born again” encompasses Once Saved Always Saved and no Catholic accepts that fundamentalist interpretation since it is wrong. Therefor you are trying to put words in my mouth. We are born into Christ through baptism. If you had any doubt about that you should have asked me for clarification. What I was conveying in the other thread was the theologically accurate exegesis that we are inherited children of God through a new human decendency hiearchy that roots itself in Jesus and Mary as a replacement for the corrupted humanity of Adam and Eve’s linage. But we receive the Holy Spirit through baptism.

You are misrepresenting what I said. If you were man enough to ask me for clarification I would have told you that Catholics are born into God’s kingdom through the Holy Spirit received at Baptism. You misrepresented what my post was about and took it completely out of context - and you know it. That is deception and a tactic that is not Christian. Thus, this thread has achieved nothing but to further your agenda of forming a strawman with the hope of sewing confusion and to try to conflict Catholic against Catholic since you have been unable to advance your fundamentalist agenda in other threads where I have proven you wrong time and time again.

If you can’t be intellectually honest in your discussions at least be man enough to stick around and tell a person if you do not agree with them. I expect this sort thing among juveniles. Have I been wrong in assuming you are an adult as well as a man? :shrug:

James


#40

I did respond to your original post with a couple of :bigyikes:

Please click the following link to see my :bigyikes: response;

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4069218&postcount=59

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