Boy, 12, turns into girl

A BOY aged 12 turned up at school as a GIRL - after changing sex during the summer holidays.

Teachers called an emergency assembly to order fellow pupils to treat him as female.

The lad, whose parents have changed his name to a girl’s by deed poll, arrived in a dress with long hair in ribboned pigtails. He is preparing for sex-swap surgery.

That do you think of this? The National Health over there is going to pay for a sex change on this boy.

Boy, 12, turns into girl

Why can’t teachers teach understanding instead of tolerance? Tolerance dose nothing but cause confusion - case in point, treating a boy as a girl. Understanding, however, causes truth and love.

I think it is a bit misleading to say he “turned into” a girl. Nothing we can do can make him a girl. He may have “breasts” (which don’t work by the way) and wear a dress, but he still can’t conceive naturally. He is a boy and will remain so for the rest of his life regardless of how he looks or acts.

Its a bit ridiculous that we have to speak falsehoods just to appease those who have mental disorders. I suppose eventually all disorders should be publicly accepted to avoid possible discrimination. Clepto should be allowed to steal, pedophiles should be allowed to have their children, rapists should not be singled out as violent, you could go on and on.

I know this takes it a bit far, but when does the craziness stop? We are doing this poor kid a disservice by not addressing the problem. It is like puting a band-aid on skin cancer and expecting it to go away just because we want it to.

God Bless.

Men can lactate even when they haven’t had a sex change, so I’m pretty sure you’re wrong there. Is it normal per say? No, but it can happen. Male and female fetuses are exactly the same at the start, they branch out several weeks in.

Most children I’ve run into that display cross-gendered behavior end up having an intersex disorder or an endocrine disorder like myself. I was told I was evil, vile, disgusting, confused, queer, the usual words when I expressed the desire to be female, all my life and beaten pretty much every day at school. Even without ‘tolerance’ and lots of ‘tough love’ I still turned out exactly the same, my feelings never changed no matter how many times people tried to exorcise me, or cure me, or beat the tar out of me, nothing changed my mind.

When I was older and took my own medical decisions into my own hands, I found out I had mixed chromosomes of male and female.

You’d be surprised what you find, when you look behind the sensationalist headlines of these sorts of stories.

Please don’t take this as me taking sides, this is just an honest question. You seem to have the idea that individuals are purely male or purely female. You make this assumption based on the organ they have. It is possible for a male to have an XX genotype, but because of a rare case in crossing over, have male characteristics. Or for a female to have only an X chromosome. Or for a baby to be born with both sets of organs.

When males are in the womb, the mother’s immune system is constantly creating antibodies to fight it off, since it sees the male proteins as an invader. If the immune system is especially (though rarely) successfully, the development of the brain can change. This would leave the embryo physically male, but in terms of the mental biochemistry, female.

If you have take nothing else from this post, just realize that things are not black and white. My question to you is if a child was born as a hermaphrodite, would you say, "they are male (or female, you pick) no matter what the do or what society says?

You may think this has no connection, since the boy was completely physically male, but why is it not possible that he had both genders within him like hermaphrodites, just not both physically.

Sorry about the length, but just my thoughts :smiley:

I think that the world has gone crazy!!

Here’s the story about a NINE yr. old boy who has already had a sex change surgery:

Wow so you think a person who is otherwise looks female, but cant conceive naturally, is not female after all?

I know where you are going with this, but that would be leaving the context of this discussion in an attempt to make me say that the ability to reproduce is the only definition of male an female which is not what I said. Women who are actually women and cannot reproduce are still women. Men who think they are becoming women and cannot reproduce are still men.

If you are born without ovaries, but with a penis, you are a male. Sorry if it bursts your bubble, but it is truth. I suppose someday science may find a way to completely remove the penis and its functionality and implant ovaries and somehow make them function appropriately (most likely with some serious side effects and miscarriages), but in the end, they are still a male because it is how God made them. Popular opinion and surgery can define the sex of a human as adequately as the legal system can define marriage. I’m sorry, but a male born a male will never become a female. Popular opinion does not always equate to truth. The way a person “feels” does not even make it true, they are either male or female based around how they are born.

I suppose there is the never-confirmed-in-humans case of the true hermaphrodite but since it has not happened it does not need to be addressed. It is a cross they must bear and I sympathize with them as this would be something I cannot fully understand. It does not mean that just because they are confused they can change their gender, because they can’t. You are changing the appearance, not the reality and allowing them to live in this state of confusion instead of focusing on the reality. This kind of response is not healthy but it is fitting for our relativistic society that does not want to enforce anything. In this society, everything should be accepted as natural…but again I ask, where does it stop?

Are pedophiles natural and should their activities be accepted? I mean, the man and the boy both seem to consent, so it isn’t hurting us, right? C’mon, if a 12 year old boy can decide he wants to be a girl, a 12 year old boy can decide he wants to be sexually involved with a 40 year old man, right? This case is just the beginnings of a social slide toward accepting everything so long as it “doesn’t hurt us” and there are well funded people willing to pay for their right to do anything. Worse yet, they may make us pay for it as is the case with this 12 year old boy. So in fact, the problem with this case and others like it is that this does hurt us. The taxes of people who do not agree with this procedure are being used to accomidate this boy’s confusion instead of providing a legitimate solution. More money should be spent in finding a real solution to this real problem instead of spending money to cover it up with a band-aid.

Before someone has a chance, I will say it for you. “Pedophiles? Really? You are going to compare a gender confused boy with a sexual disorder?” Yes I am and the parallel is completely adequate. Both are in truth a sexual disorder but one is socially acceptable and one is not. It is only a matter of time before pedophiles attempt to become socially acceptable. Oh wait, NAMBLA is already around to try that. So if we are going to defend the rights of a young boy to decide his gender (which is not truly his gender), how are we going to defend NAMBLA’s claim that the boy consents to the relationship? The boys can either make such decisions or they can not.

God Bless.

It’s not mythical. Thousands of infants are born every year and they have no idea what sex they are, chromosomes lie, or just confuse. Mine are XX/XY/XXY for example. My gonads are mixed and nonfunctional, they make neither eggs nor sperm, you can’t really say whether they’re ovarian or testicular tissue, as they never developed to a point where they could do one thing or the other.

Fetuses all start out female and diverge down a path to male, or not. Sometimes that path is partially taken, taken mistakenly etc.

It’s all well and good to bob your head and say ‘it’s a cross to be bare’ well, if you best take it in silence, because if anyone knows you’ll be quick to be disowned, homeless, jobless and treated like absolute trash. I’ve been evicted because people assume intersex and/or transsexual==sex offender/pedophile/whore by default. The label is tattooed on my records for all time.

A couple of points here; first is that the scenario you are speaking of does not fit the context of the OP as the boy is a boy, not a confused genital transgender. In the instance you are speaking of when one does not have either definitive sex organ, it seems to me that in the case where neither organ is functional, you may have a choice here depending on your disposition. So in that regard, which accounts for less than 0.3% (the statistic from the article you linked) of births, there may be an argument to a gender decision, not a gender change. Later in life, this person may undergo a gender change based on the original decision being wrong…possibly. I do not know what to think about this I admit. The context of my post is associated to the 99.7%+ (including this boy) of people who have a definitive sex, even if their genitals may betray the said sex. Even if you include those who have the definitive sex with confused genitals and appearance, you are looking at 1% of births.

In regards to the myth, no human has been born with both sex organs fully functional according to the link you provided and the admittedly little research I have done into this topic. This was my point in saying the true hermaphrodite topic does not need to be covered as a true hermaphrodite is one possessing both sex organs, not one possessing neither sex organ. It is also not one who has male organs and looks female.

The second point is that discrimination is never right. That is a separate topic all together. It is also something this boy has unfortunately brought upon himself in choosing to have a gender change. Do I think it is right what the boy has gone through? No, of course not. Should we accept his decision to become a girl? No, of course not. The problem should be addressed for what it is, a mental confusion. You don’t change your physical attributes to address mental issues. It just doesn’t make any sense. The world should not conform to the fancies of men. To attempt to change nature to appease a person is selfish and borderline self idolatry. What we need here is acceptance of his differences (natural differences, not self inflicted societal differences).

As a society, we should be more accepting of feminine attributes in a male (not to the extent of homosexual behavior). God makes us as we are meant to be made. You get back to each person’s cross to bear and that some are harder to understand than others but all should be accepted. Again I say, in this instance and in over 99% of these instances, you are still left with a confused sexual identity that is mental in characteristic and your focus on the less than 1% of births does not support an argument in favor of this boy’s decision as they are entirely different scenarios. You have brought up a valid concern in an ambiguous scenario and as I do not know what the answer is in this regard, I will not comment further on this exceedingly rare condition. I will attempt to continue to address this unfortunately common scenario in which known males and females are changing their sex.

God Bless.

This is a minor, their medical records are not known. How do you know the child isn’t intersexed? Just because it is not mentioned, doesn’t mean it is not there, the child has enough issues going on than to have that in the papers too. Look what happened to Caster Semenya with the mere leaked rumors that she’s intersexed.

Do you think any parent in their right mind would let the press know, especially now?

So if one is inter-sexed visibly and physically, they have a choice, but if one is inter-sexed mentally, in terms of the chemical reactions in their body and brain, they are bound to what the physical tells them? The only difference is if it can be seen with the human eye, and that’s not much of a factor.

This seems contradictory. Above, you said you might have a choice in some situations, but here you say we are how we are and that’s it. Can you explain? I know you don’t want to discuss the rare and minority cases, but I think you can explain that contradiction with out doing so.

Thanks :smiley:

I suppose I am going on the article itself instead of adding assumptions. It stated he was a boy, so instead of assuming it was a transgender, I concluded that he was one of the 99%+ who are in fact a boy.

Yes, I think if the boy was in fact a transgender, the parents would have mentioned it as their reasoning behind allowing their child to “change” genders. Of course I could be wrong, but instead of assuming at this point, I will continue to go off of what the article states. If it turns out that in fact he was a transgender, then I would say what I said in my previous post in regards to that topic.

Either way, the story seems to be one of a true male attempting to change into a female and so my posts still fit this story. Anything else is assumption at this point and my comments still stand for this scenario.

God Bless.

That is what I am saying, yes. A male is a male by our physical make up, not our mental decisions. A male cannot bear children just as a female cannot impregnate another female. This is male and female, not our “feministic” feelings or a twisted attraction to the same sex.

If one cannot be defined by ones sexual role (bear children or impregnate) then a decision could need to be made. God made the person in that situation and in my opinion, the decision should be to leave them as such. Our response to decide if they will be male or female is based on the fallen world that would chastise them otherwise. That being said, I do not know what God would want us to do in that situation and I would defer to the Church for guidance. It seems to me it would be more faithful to Christ’s message to leave them as a transgender than to choose one sex. You may say it would be cruel to do so because of the torment they may receive throughout their life, but that is the problem of society so instead of preaching to change their sex, we should be preaching tolerance for God’s creatures.

So no, there is no contradiction because I stated that there MAY be a valid argument to a sex DESCION at the time of birth. I did not say that is what I would do. The concern would then be “what if we made the wrong choice?” So I would still stand by my statement that God made us as we were meant to be made and so no change should be made. I simply conceded that I did not know what answer would be in that rare case and so an argument could be made because one, I do not know the science behind this phenomenon and two, I do not know the Church’s teaching on this item.

God Bless.

The status quo is to mutilate the child’s genitals into a configuration that will somewhat resemble normality and douse their body with hormones at puberty,they will be completely incapable of conducting any sex act, even if they were actually going to be functional as God had them born.

First of all, I will say that I disagree that a 12 year old child should be allowed to undergo a sex change operation. Such elective procedures should only be done after the age of 18 I think just like (thankfully) most plastic surgeons would not give 14 year old girls breast implants. However I think that a 12 year old and anyone else has the right to dress and live as the gender they believe they are. Even a seven year old should be allowed this, however perplexing his or her parents might find it.

Yes a female bears children etc and a male has his own role etc but so what? I dont see how that makes a person all female and all male. When you meet someone how do you definitively know they re a woman and a man? Did you look between their legs? Examine their body shape? There is no respectful way of knowing a person’s sex for a fact, a person we have no intimate relations with that is. My point is that in our daily interactions with others etc sex and gender should have little consequence. Of course it is not that way in society but should be something we strive for. We should not assume that since someone is born with male genitalia they must want to act and dress they way soceity has dictated those of that genitalia should.

Yes it is quite disgusting to compare this with pedophilia or to imply that those who support this support pedos. Whatever your views you would find it difficult to prove that an adult with better judgment has been hurting and violating this 12 year old for their (the adult’s ) own pleasure. It benefits or gives pleasure to no one but the 12 year old herself, to allow her to live like a typical girl. Pedophilia is a form of abuse and permanently affects the victim.

God bless.

The problem is that it will probably not stop at physical appearance and actions. If a male wants to be a female and so turns to homosexual behavior, then you have a problem. A sex change does not cause the act to cease being homosexual. The point of my posts is that a male, despite how he wants to act is a male. His role as a male is to provide the seed. A sex change will not change this nor will what he wants to act or dress like. My opinion is that a male should be proud of his role and any denial of said role will ultimately lead to confusion and problems not only in society but in their personal life. I do not think that a male should even act as a female because there is honor in being a male just as their is honor in being female. We are made different and to act as the opposite sex is to blur our distinct roles in life which God has established.

Now, that being said, there are norms that society has labeled as male and female that do not need to hold simply because it is the norm (clothing, hair, body proportions, etc.). The ultimate role as male and female is defined in our procreative and unitive relations. There are other aspects that are part of our makeup that define male and female such as typically more strength which would also fit a male role of defender of the female. This is also something that God designed us to do and as Adam failed in this role, a male acting as a female would probably fail at as well. Ultimately it is a twisting of God’s design and as all of Satan’s works, will lead to separation from God and His plan. To be accepting of this, in my opinion, is to fall into moral relativism and in all honesty is one more step in our fallen nature away from God. No good can come of accepting a confirmed male into God defined female roles. A sex change would fall into this category as this boy is not simply trying to look like a girl, but trying to become a girl.

I would like to point out that I did not suggest that those who support sex change support pedophiles. That is a link made by you. My link between the two is that acceptance of one (in this case dealing with a 12 year old boy) will inhibit your defense against the other. It is also linked in the sense that pedophilia is one example of a twisted behavior that one could argue is natural and non-detrimental to society, just as supporters of sex change procedures would likely claim. The connections I made were based on logical conclusions being made by both sides, not between the supporters of both sides. I do not think and would not make a claim that the supporters of sex change operations automatically support pedophilia, just to clarify.

In this regard, an adult with better judgment IS hurting a 12 year old boy. It does NOT benefit the 12 year old boy. That has been my point since the first post. It does not help anyone to accept this procedure, ever. Again, it is my opinion that whatever they are born like, they should remain in regards to sex organs. Male, female or ambiguous. The problem lies in society’s acceptance and in a truly ambiguous case, you may be able to defend a sex decision in order to prevent mental trauma but even that is conceding to social norms that should be fought. We as children of God should accept all other children of God as they are made. A sex change does not equate to how God made them and so should not be accepted.

God Bless.

There is inconsistency in what you are saying. First you say that a man should act as a man. Then you say that there are norms like dress that need not be followed.

Do you really think a child or anyone should be subject to trauma on a daily basis because of social norms or whatever? You are saying leave well alone. What if someone is born with two sets of incomplete organs? Please don’t confuse this issue with homosexuality, it is not.

I think we cannot judge, we certainly cannot judge that boy or his parents. You are not in their shoes.

I also cannot understand how you can equate transgenderism ( not sure if this is the right word) with paediophilia in any way.

Men are not defined by what they wear. You are falling into the typical social norms I was talking about. Do I think it normal for a man to want to wear a dress? No, but I also think skirts and no underwear is strange but the Scots think it is perfectly masculine. It is a perception of society that the way a man dresses defines their masculinity. A man should act as a man, but their clothing does not impede said actions unless the reason they are wearing the cloths is in an attempt to be a woman.

I’m not, don’t worry. I have already addressed these comments in other posts.

I’m not judging, I am responding to the OP about what I think about a boy who wants to be a girl. It won’t happen even if the boy gets a sex change. It is the same concept of homosexual marriage. Even if the law says they are married, they in fact are not married because marriage, like the sex of that boy, is defined by God and we cannot change that. We are not God and attempting to play God will cause a lot of pain and confusion.

Again I will reiterate that I do not know about the truly undefined sex organs at birth. I do not have adequate scientific or theological information on the subject at this point.

Okay, I am not asking you to understand. A parallel can be made and you can disagree with it, that is your opinion.

God Bless.

Facts are good. Here are a few:

First, no-one is saying that a 12 year old should have sex-change surgery until age 18. Not the girl herself, nor her parents.

Secondly, transsexuality is not a matter of “feelings” but of anatomy. Neuro-anatomy, rather than genital anatomy.

I’ll quote Professor of Urology, a biological not psychiatric science, Dr Sidney Ecker on this:

Hi Zoe,

Yes, we gave our presentation to 60 plus psychiatrists from the US, AU, FR, IT, EU, UK, Holland etc.

We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. We presented internationally accepted guidelines for hormonal treatment of transsexuals to be published Summer 2009.

Here are my slides and with my participants’ permission I shall send you theirs. We are now in print in the APA Syllabus and soon in the APA Journal this summer. I am checking if we were recorded.

My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain.

Hope you can do something with this.
Sid Ecker, M.D.

Note that this girl has the emotional response of any other girl her age, the same feelings, the same modes of thinking, the same sense of smell and of hearing, the same language ability, all things which are as sexually-differentiated as the genitalia. (More so for some people - the Intersexed).

Some of the hundreds of medical papers on the subject - for while it would be unethical to deliberately induce transsexuality in a human foetus, it has been done regularly in animal experiments.

1.DF Swaab, WC Chung, FP Kruijver, MA Hofman, TA Ishunina
Structural and functional sex differences in the human hypothalamus
Horm Behav. Sep, 2001; 40(2): 93-8. Review

  1. DF Swaab
    Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation
    Gynecol Endocrinol. Dec, 2004; 19(6): 301-12. Review.

3.IE Sommer, PT Cohen-Kettenis, T van Raalten, AJ Vd Veer, LE Ramsey, LJ Gooren, RS Kahn, NF Ramsey
Effects of cross-sex hormones on cerebral activation during language and mental rotation: An fMRI study in transsexuals
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. Mar 2008; 18(3): 215-21.

4.H Berglund, P Lindstrom, C Dhejne-Helmy, I Savic
Male to female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids
Cereb Cortex. Aug 2008; 18(8): 1900-8.

This girl was born with parts of her body female, and parts male. Externally, she was apparently normally male. But it soon became clear, in early childhood, that this was not so. Boys and Girls are different, no matter what surgery they may or may not have to change the external appearance. The Church recognises this, when it states that surgery cannot change gender. It can’t.

The trouble is, this child is a girl, no matter what she looks like externally. Brain scans can show that, as can more simple tests.

It’s too early to say whether she’ll be straight, or lesbian, as many transsexual women are. Transsexuality has nothing to do with Homosexuality per se, any more than being left-handed does.

The problem is that having the wrong shaped body, being expected to be homosexual (lesbian) in order to appear “normal” feels terribly perverse and un-natural. It causes immense misery - and in cases where the syndrome is apparent at such an early age, 50% self harm by age 20 if they don’t get treatment for it.

We can’t alter the brain. The differences are at the cellular level, and we’d have to develop nanotechnology to make changes from inside of millions of individual cells to do that. But we can alter the body, imperfectly, to reflect reality. We get a 98% improvement rate from that. That’s why the Church allows such surgery in extreme cases, as stated in a document circulated sub secretum to bishops, but unknown to the laity like yourself. Not all bishops and archbishops have read it, by all accounts, for that matter.

Moreover, the hormonal regime relieves much of the misery, which is caused by a female neurology exposed to a male endocrinology. The usual anti-psychotics and anti-depressants won’t touch this, the cause is different. They may take the edge off though, as some of the misery is caused by the social and religious persecution.

Female to male transsexuality happens too, and may even be as common. But for cultural reasons, it’s not seen as nearly so upsetting in a patriarchal society. Hence it hardly ever gets mentioned, unless a celebrity suffers from it.

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