Buying products of companies actively promoting gay marriage and other stuff

I already take from this thread
that a company just in some way promoting sin is not a problem.

But in the case i have in mind, its more a “in your face” approach.

I am into roleplaying games (RPG), for people not aware, RPG is about playing a character taking part in adventures happening in a normally imagined world.E.g. 3 people sit together one decides to be a guy called Frodo, the other to be a guy called Sam, both are Hobbits and the third is game master and says: “You havegotastrange ring from your uncle, it turns you invisible and there is this Wizard Gandalf, who is worried about that ring and told you to keep it secret; he wrote some letter that he will visit you again, but he has not arrived; … what do you do?” Frodo “We pack our things and head west, avoiding main roads, cause i fear somebody might be out to get us. Uh, i also check whether i have some sword or other weapon to take along.” GM:“You do not have a weapon at home, shire is peaceful, no need for it; so you head east right through the fields; you do not see any sign of pursuers …” That would be RPG (Of course this would be a boring adventure as all would know the storyline).

What the company provides are rules (mostly regarding die roles resolving issues for example whether one spots pursuers who try to hide), adventure storylines and world settings, so one has a known “playfield” for the game.

Most often, the storylines resolve around fighting or stopping some evil (as in the Lord of the Rings storyline, stop Sauron from conquering the world). Hence, in providing a stroyline and world setting, there is usually an indication whats good and evil in this world (usually its the normal stuff, slaughtering innocents = evil, sacrifice to save innocent = good).

I now realized that the company i am buying such products from is actively promoting what they call “equality”, deliberately including LGBT characters (and of course marriage among them in any possible combination) in their storyline with also the worded purpose in mind that it lessens anti-LGBT tendencies in the people using their products, is positive on anybody calling someone with different opinion “bigot” and last designed their world in such way, that anyone against gay marriage is on the evil side in their world (or more precisely all good “gods” of their world are pro-anything LGBT, while all anti-LGBT “gods” are non-good or even evil).

I think this is different from what most other companies do, directly telling customers with the product, that anti-LGBT is evil. (and evil in that imaginary world is usually of the slaughtering innocent type, which is normally to be dealt with accordingly, so not some moral relativistic “Uh, we cannot know what evil is” stuff)

Would continuing to buy such products be morally problematic?

Personally, i probably wont buy anymore of their products, because i guess they do not want “bigot” customers and i dislike if a product tries to educate me about something in a way thats anyway bound to fail (their arguments are so lousy, they are not even convincing on a purely secular base), especially if that has nothing to do with the reasons i bought the product. But i am interested, whether it might be sinful.

And of course there is no serious need for me to buy their products.

Anything/anyone promoting sin is a problem.

I used to worry about not purchasing products from such companies and did well for a long time. Now, its not a viable option, practically impossible. Almost everyone, everywhere eithers supports deviant behavior or remains silent as not to lose money. The ones who do speak out are quickly attacked until they shut their doors. Now, I just try to make it through the day without getting into trouble, but you see where the problem of promoting sin leads don’t you? The destruction of the opponent.

We have a heavy cross to bear, but not so heavy as the one Jesus carried.

The issue is, whether continuing to buy would be a sin.

Its in my eyes a step beyond support. Effictively they said:

"In our imaginary world, which hopefully many people like and pay money to us for continued development, among other stuff the following things are evil:
-summoning demons/devil
-sacrifcing sentinent beings
-eating sentinent beings
-torturing sentinent beings
-cheating death via forbidden means (e.g. vampire)
-being against gay marriage
-suggesting a person having dislike for his/her gender should try to accept it instead of trying to change it
-having preferred gender roles because only one of the two genders can get pregnant

and at least for the first 5 issues the good and just reaction in our world is to pick up your sword, seek out the evil doers, kick in their door and kill them." (Note: in RPG thats a not unusual activity, take Lord of the Rings, whole plot is about destroying Sauron and any of his henchman getting in the way are fought)

That feels a bit like someone selling burgers and instead of printing nutrient information or additional advertising on the bags he prints “Anti-gay marriage is Evil.” on the bags.

They are certainly not suggesting anyone doing what one might implicitely read into that, but my question is whether buying their products might be sinful.

What I was alluding to is, if it is a sin, almost all of us are guilty. Its practically unavoidable these days. Almost every produce out there is in some way connected to a business or affiliated with someone who supports such things.

Our generation has, collectively, Blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
That is why this is so widespread.
Because of a breathtakingly rapid and unconscionable Apostasy.

I also to table top roleplaying and, every once in awhile, I have played in games that tested morality in uncomfortable ways. The good thing is you need not partake in much of what is offered - you can make these systems and settings in your own image based on your views or build your own world and use the rules to run in it. Times are changing and you will see many (or even most) companies becoming more pro-LGBT as time goes because they will do whatever makes them the most money. This isn’t bad, in and of itself, but if society holds problematic views then you can expect popular media to hold them as well. As a game or dungeon master you are, ultimately, in control though.

If the situation bothers you a great deal there is many other systems out there you can play in as well, so with table top roleplaying games you at least get a lot of options. You needn’t give up the hobby, entirely.

I don’t know if I can agree witgh this statement. Blasphemy is attempting to speak or represent the thoughts of God in a way that is not of God, willfully, as I understand the word. It is as serious as sin comes because there is no coming back from it. That said, I think it is thrown around too much and too easily (like the word “epic” - don’t even get me started on that). Is it unholy in the eyes of the Church? No doubt, but not Blasphemy. The culture doesn’t claim to speak on behalf of God and even churches that do such as the Episcopalians where their views are quite liberal compared to others, I would still not call this God because they have rationale and honestly believe what they preach (I am not saying they aren’t in error, however, so don’t get me wrong).

The problem is not whether it bothers me, but whether it would be sinful to continue buying there, because its so drastic condemnation of christian values and a such drastic endorsement of sin as being good from a company. Normally companies are intersted in making money and therefore keep mostly quiet about any controversial issues. Walmart leadership might be in favor or against gay marriage, but they would not hang posters above entrances with “all you anti-gay customers, you are evil bigots who should learn better” in large letters.

If a supermarket would do such a thing, would shopping there be sinful, if alternative supermarkets are available (who might hold similar opinons but at least voice them less bluntly)?

People running this Company think that Life’s a Game, and they are now manipulating you!

Talking generally, the Church does not require us to research every manufacturer or retailer to find out if they make/sell products or have policies that contradict Church teachings. That would also be totally impractical.
If we were to not buy food, drinks, clothes, houses from such companies we would all have to sit in a cave in the desert, naked, and die from thirst/starvation.

But this is about a product from a company that intentionally has the problematic issue put in the product to paint opposing views as evil and promote acceptance of the issue among its customer base.

Buying gay marriage propaganda books from a gay marriage advocacy group would certainly be sinful, as it effectively would help them promoting their message. Giving a company money for products which are from the companies perspective also meant to advocate in favor of gay marriage, is so close, that i am uncertain.

edit: And its not researching to find out, its more an open “Take this, bigots”. It would be very hard to miss.

Its so open that i feel insulted. That might be a good reason not to buy their products, but i just would like to know whether still buying would be sinful, if i say, well they insult me, but i can ignore their blatant endorsement and manipulation attempts and the rest of their product is fine, just what i want for entertainment purposes.

Frankly, I have never even heard of the company, never mind what it promotes.
That’s why my earlier comments were general and not specific to any particular company.

Anyone having a further suggestions, to what extent a company must promote sin that buying its product becomes sinful, if less problematic alternatives are available?

I think there might be such a situation. Because if one would have one company running ads and printing all over there products that gay marriage is holy and there is another one which keeps at least quiet about the matter and products are otherwise identical, i would be pretty certain that it would be wrong to buy products of the first company.

I dont think people have taken time to read the first post. Most replies suggest this.

The originator of this thread is not asking if its ok to buy from companies that support immorality.

He has described a PRODUCT that defines opposition to gay marriage and sex-change as EVIL. He is asking if its a sin to buy such a product.

My opinion is yes, its bad. At the least it is occassion of sin or complicity in heresy. They are proclaiming heresy by redefining good as evil and vice versa so you cannot perpetuate it. Seems like buying a book or dvd that preaches or proclaims falsehood. I would avoid such material.

Could you name the product being offered that you are describing? Quite frankly, I am huge into tabletops and I’ve never heard of any such inclusion in any major product. I’d like to know if there is (and how blatantly it is expressed if so).

I guess non-RPG people can just ignore this post, its long, the details might be confusing and are filled with genre jargon.

From Paizo Golarion world and Adventure Paths (which are regular instalments of campaings, called APs) for their system Pathfinder.

Evidence (since i acuse here someone of something i should include evidence):

AP 73 (hailed in AP 72, in which one has to ally with a pretty evil witch to stop her even more evil daugther from destroying the world, as the opportunity to once again be the real good guys with none such “ally with someone evil to defeat the even more evil”) includes a female lesbian LG Paladin NPC who has in background story described more or less two good deeds she has done, the first saving someone from robbers, who turned out to be a transgender man she fell in love with and her second good deed was selling her holy magic sword to pay for a sex change potion which she offered to the transgender man/soon-to-be woman as a gift when proposing marriage and now their are happy married wife and wife (with the LG Paladin of course still being an LG Paladin) - i hope this makes my wording “in your face” understandable

"James Jacobs Creative Director Aug 20, 2013, 03:23 PM
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James Jacobs

Those notes are basically as follows:

GLBT characters exist in Golarion, so make sure they’re included.

As long as Paizo continues to have GLBT employees, we’ll continue to put GLBT characters into our products. In fact, even if the employee thing changes, we’ll still put GLBT characters into our products. As long as I have anything to say about it at least. There’s a gay couple in the next adventure, in fact, so the inclusiveness isn’t stopping with Anevia and Irabeth in this AP.

Furthermore, I’m gonna keep doing this in our APs until it’s no longer an issue and folks just talk about the adventure without really pausing to discuss whether any one NPC is a sorcerer or wizard. And at that point I’ll keep doing it.

Anyway… keep on topic. And since there are LBGT characters in the adventure, that part of the discussion IS on topic… but keep it civil, please!"
(Anevia and Irabeth are the two wife and wife chars from AP 73 discussed above; James Jacobs is probably the most influential person in paizo company)
" Jessica Price Project Manager Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 09:57 PM
Jessica Price

Yes, but generally the flaws in good deities are fairly minor, comparatively speaking – none of them are in favor of torturing the innocent, for example. Given that Paizo has a large number of LGBT employees, I think that as a company we tend to take the idea of forbidding people loving relationships and marriage based on genders of the partners to be a pretty significant flaw. I could see us maybe having it be a flaw in a neutral deity, but it’s hard to imagine we’d publish it for a good deity. It’d be like having a good deity that objected to people of Garundi descent being allowed to marry – too evil for a good deity. "

(Discussion is directly about whether some good “god” of the game world could be “homophobic” = against gay marriage; do not know how important this Jessica Prince is, but she is an Paizo official and i can only read there that she says that against gay marriage is simply too much to be good - actually it even sounds like she is suggesting being against gay marriage is somewhat equivalent to torturing innocents)

Thats my somewhat failed attempt to understand what i can expect from future paizo products (e.g. they might also decide to take sides regarding abortion or other stuff and that i was interested in). The relevant point is that i tried to word it neutrally and reffered to “politics stuff” and “political issue” (Might be a language problem, i’m german, but if something voted, legislated, appealed in court and political fought over in many countries, then i thought it would qualify as political issue). And already that was consider to be morally wrong by many posters as the other side has no morally acceptable arguments and its just common decency to treat people as peoples; with that James Jacobs agreed as well:
" James Jacobs Creative Director Sat, Nov 2, 2013, 01:29 PM
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James Jacobs
Mikaze wrote:

Thirded. It's not politics, it's treating people like people. 


It’s not politics.

And it’s not anything new either. We’ve had LGBT characters in the world since Pathfinder #1. And LGBT characters at Paizo much longer than that."

(The thread of course ended in the usual way with the fun bonus that when one poster accused my of desiring genocide vs gay people no moderator decided to do anything, but when many posts later i tried to clarify the problem that the legal term marriage needs a definition before one can think about whether someone is denied the right to marriage using bestiality as example, thread was quickly closed)

I do not know whether i am realy fair, but well they seem to be intent on repeatedly including the themes “pro-LGBT good” and at least indirectly “anti-LGBT evil”. And im curious whether that would be sufficient enough that it would be sinful to buy their stuff.

Trying to be more accurately, it is buying a (or actually several) book that is (are) expected to carry as a side issue the message that LGBT is good and anti-LGBT is not good.

(What importance this side issue will have in future is then of course guesswork from a customers perspective.)

Bumping thread up.

If they’re promoting homosexuality, they’re not promoting sin.

Is this one of those statements made in the effort to have someone else say, “Of course it is”, and you begin to talk about how homosexuality is a “natural” state of how one feels rather than outward action, or do you just generally believe homosexual acts are not sinful, when they really are?

I ask for clarification so I know how to provide the proper answer for you since your statement is far too unsubstantiated to give a detailed response. It may also help if you define what you consider “promoting”.

The OP said they’re promoting homosexuality, not homosexual acts.

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