Have you ever met a Calvinist who didn’t believe they were destined for heaven? I am just curious, because all of the Calvinists I have met believe they are part of the those pre-destined for heaven.
The one Calvinist in our family definitely believes that she is going to heaven along with those in her Calvinist church. But I think they give only lip service to TULIP since it is apparent that they believe in praying the sinner’s prayer and voila you are saved exactly like those members of fundamentalist churches do. It seems apparent to me as well that they are heavily into social work and the “green” movement. They allow for female clergy (at least the brand of Calvinist in my world). So I’d say yes Calvinists seem to all believe that they are all destined for heaven.
There is a small sect of Calvinists, the Reformed Baptist, who still believe in TULIP including unconditional election. I have met some of those folks and to a person he believes he is one of the elect. There may be other sects who still take TULIP seriously but I have not run across any of them.
I agree with the above. Most members of big mainline Reformed denominations (Presbyterian Church USA etc) tend to be TULIP in name only, and in practice and conversation demonstrate basically Arminian beliefs.
There are still many small Reformed denominations and independent congregations that take TULIP very seriously, as well as individual congregations or churchgoers even in the more liberal mainline denominations.
In answer to your question though, I think most Reformed would interpret the acceptance of Reformed beliefs as themselves evidence of election.
Believing in TULIP = Being Christian = Being Saved = Being among the Elect
To be fair to them though, they believe that the number of the Elect (the invisible Church) includes members of other Churches, even those who believe they chose salvation using free will. Whether that potentially includes Catholics, however, is disputed, as some of the more rigorous would say acceptance of various Catholic doctrines is testament to reprobation.
I recall a southern baptist pastor pointing this out in his sunday sermon railing against the influx of Calvanism is the Southern Baptist Convention. He said he’d never met a Calvinist who felt that it was all predestined and that they were definitely going to hell and could not do a thing about it.
Our salvation depends on our will to follow Christs example in deed,work and word, to confess and repent of our sins when we commit them, and to fight the good fight, finish the race and keep the faith.
Salvation however, still remains is a gift from god and cannot be earned. Damnation on the other hand, has to be worked for…
Romans 6 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Most Prespyterians don’t take there salvation as a “sure thing!”
Most Calvinists, including myself, would counter that merely asking the question about your eternal destiny is, itself, a pretty good indicator that you are Elect.
Indeed, even Arminians generally concede that showing any concern about one’s eternal destiny at all is itself only possible after an act of Prevenient Grace by God.
I’d say probably. Since the reformed view is considered the full gospel by Calvinists, I’m guessing the very fact that a person accepts the Calvinistic understanding of predestination, would be a sign that God had elected them to salvation.
I didn’t know what TULIP was. I’ve just done a search. As I’m not one of the elect what’s the point of it all? Oh well, if I’m not going to be saved, I’m off - wine, women and song here I come:D
Hi, Bergon, Indeed the conflict lies in the fact, Jesus wishes all will be saved.I believe He also says something to the effect; I wonder how many will be saved.
There is confusion as well between “redemption” and “salvation” and we should not confuse the two. Christ died, once, for all. That means that he has paid the price for every human being on the face of the earth that has ever lived and ever will live. But that does not mean that they will all be saved. Jesus has opened the door to our cage by his redemption. He does not force us to fly out of the cage. He will never interfere in our free will. We are free to accept the gift or refuse it. We can remain in the prison of sin if we choose.
The entire idea that one has no control over his eternal destiny flies in the face of justice.
Well said Steve:thumbsup:
Well… I don’t really consider myself a Five Point TULIP Calvinist.
I’m more of a Five Strip BACON Calvinist.
What bible verses would you use to give evidence of your belief? Also the concern about one’s eternal salvation is evidence of what Catholics call Actual Grace given by God to enable one to use one’s free will.
lol, mind sharing some of that bacon?
I can probably get on board with any religion that holds bacon in such high regard! j/k
In the main, this is part of what we mean when we talk about “Total Depravity” or “Total Inability.”
The main texts are Romans 3:10-12 (where Paul is quoting Psalms):
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
And Eph 2:1-3:
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
I think it was R.C. Sproul who said (and I’m paraphrasing here) that some Christians have this notion of the Gospel that it’s like we’re drowning and Jesus throws us a life preserver and we just have to reach out and grab it; but, the reality of the gospel is that we are a long dead, waterlogged corpse at the bottom of the lake and Jesus dives in, hauls us up on the beach, and breathes entirely new life into us.
For Calvinists: We are not dying. We are dead and, short of a direct miraculous intervention right from the hand of almighty God, dead men don’t rise again.
Preach Brother Preach
Haven’t heard someone quote RCS since I last did it.
I think that the water is about to get muddy but maybe not. If I remember SteveVH is pretty nice and has thoughtful answers.
I dont know if you have ever seen these before but there are a bunch of them Boromir is my hero though so I had to put it up.
Ok they would not let me post the image so if you look up “someones wrong on the internet” you should be able to find it in it’s various forms
HI, Be Does this also mean Abraham, Moses, Elijah, and especially Mary, when God sent Gaberial, to ask her to be the mother of God was not righteous ?
Yes it does, or at least it means that they were not righteous in and of themselves.
That’s not to say that their righteousness was entirely forensic. It was real and it belonged to them, just as whatever righteousness we have is real and belongs to us but that righteousness, at least in our view, is the fruit of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and it is not, properly speaking, anything that we did on our own.
Just dropping in for the bacon :D.