Is a Catholic allowed to wish upon an enemy of the faith as well as heretics damnation and curse them, their family, friends, and what-have you to Hell?
Is that what Christ would do? When He was being tormented the most, he didnt say “D*mn all of you!!!”
He said “Forgive them Father… they don’t know what they are doing…”
Uh, what do you think?
No way, Jose. The Saints always wish for the Salvation of Souls.
The question has been nagging me and I have been feeling very angry at the Modernists and Liberals lately as they have angered the Traditionalists. Not only that, but a bit of Church Militant here and there. Haven’t seen Voris’s works in a while and I partially agree with him. Sadly, I myself am infected with Modernism by watching secular works on TV and the Internet. Still, wasn’t there a video of Church Militant talking about hatred?
And did not St. Pius the X say something that Traditionalists often quote as him saying (Paraphrasing here as well as quoting) ‘Kindness is for Fools! They ought to be beaten with fists!’…
On the earth, violence may or may not be justified… but wishing someone eternal torment, sorrow, and grief through Hell is never, ever justified
If you are under the impression that this is alright for any good Catholic to do, then I reccomend that your sources may not be the best.
“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”
“Oh my Jesus, forgive our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of their mercy.”
Anger of that sort is a sin. We are supposed to pray for the salvation of our enemies.
How about you work on relaxing a little bit and seeing everybody as brothers and sisters and all part of One Body of Christ?
Oh no. What did we do this time?
Probably not. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s wrong to take satisfaction in God’s justice.
I’d say that we’re allowed to wish for divine justice, for God to hold unrepentant sinners accountable for their actions and to punish them accordingly. Even if that means Hell.
Some of the Psalms, called Imprecatory Psalms, outright wish death and hell upon the enemies of God and God’s people.
O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
Let them vanish like water that runs away;
when he aims his arrows, let them be blunted.
Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime,
like the stillborn child who never sees the sun.
Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns,
whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away!
The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
surely there is a God who judges on earth.”
This is a portion of Psalm 58, specifically asking for God to do terrible things to the wicked. And don’t anyone dare say “that only applied before Jesus” - he did not invalidate the Old Testament. It upsets me when people say “that no longer applies” when they find something in the Old Testament they dislike. In the Book of Romans, when telling people not to be vengeful, the Apostle Paul quotes Deuteronomy 32:35. Specifically this part:
Vengeance is mine, and recompense,
for the time when their foot shall slip;
for the day of their calamity is at hand,
and their doom comes swiftly.’
This idea that anger in-and-of-itself is sinful, or that it is a sin to feel hatred for those who wrong us, is untrue. From a psychological standpoint it is unfair because anger, hatred, and forgiveness are all emotions that we can not control: they are not choices. I know from personal experience, and psychologists (people who study the human mind and human emotions) back this up.
From a biblical standpoint (because when I mention the psychologists a lot of people here just say “I think they’re wrong” or “I’m still gonna shame victims into pretending to forgive”) there are tons of verses where God expresses anger towards wrongdoers, or where a holy person prays to God to cause suffering on wrongdoers and is not reprimanded for this - too many verses for it to be an anomaly. David did not forgive the Philistines, Paul did not forgive the Docetists.
If I seem angry on a personal level, that’s because I am. A few years ago a reckless driver killed my brother, did everything in his power to avoid consequences, is scot free, and has no remorse. Every time people tell me “let it go” or “forgive” I feel sick and angry again, especially since many of these people (though admittedly not all) have never been permanently hurt in their lives.
I didn’t link to sources because from personal experience it seems that nobody reads or acknowledges those anyway. In past threads here I’ve seen people claim to be in the right even after being confronted with a quote from the vatican itself saying otherwise.
I’m not saying you have to change your emotions. You feel how you feel. I was angry at people for years and justifiably so. When I reached the point of wanting to “let it go”, it was because I chose to and not because other people told me I should or guilted me into it.
However, you have absolutely NO idea whether people have been “permanently hurt” in their lives.
Most people who have suffered a major hurt are not going to tell you about it. Pretty much every one of my friends has had some big major tragedy that I didn’t find out for years. In some cases I didn’t find out until after the person was dead.
Please don’t judge others in this way.
Thank you for reminding us that private interpretation is dangerous.
The Church teaches that Anger is good when it is rational, such as in righteous anger.
In general, we are rational creatures, and as such, our emotions should flow from rational thought.
I believe it takes a very holy person to rightly curse. Something I do not believe we here are able to do.
Christ begged that His murderers would be forgiven. He did this while they were killing Him.
Jesus commanded us to “love your enemies” and to “pray for those who persecute you.” It may be one of the more difficult commandments of the new Gospel.
Hey, thanks for all the input. Technically, I shouldn’t judge… as I’m struggling with certain sins. I get angry about the whole Traditionalist-Moddernist thing all the time whenever I read about it and want some peace and quiet in the Church. I even think about it during work as I’m doing my job.
I’m sorry if I caused offense, that wasn’t my intent. It’s just that I see so many people talk about this sort of thing in a cavalier and unsympathetic way that indicates lack of experience. I’ve also read articles about how rape victims are condemned by their peers for not forgiving their rapists, and about how other such forgiveness-shaming takes place in society.
Did you mean this in a sincere way, or in a “thanks for showing us what not to do” kind of way? I mean no offense in my question, I’m just not sure.
I try to mean what I say!
I’m sorry if it sounds snarky, I try to make my points meaningful yet also attempt to be at least somewhat rhetorically powerful.
So, in that vein, I was attempting to denote that such interpretation of the psalms as allowing cursing and damnation of the faithful Christian to others is not accurate, while also remaining mindful of Catholic understanding and teaching.
Oh, so it’s the former then. Being rude or snarky only makes the person you’re talking to less receptive to what you have to say.
In any case the verses I referenced are still in the bible and “the Old Testament doesn’t matter anymore” isn’t a convincing argument.