Can a Group Consider itself to be Part of an Order Because it Follows the Order's Spirituality?


#1

There are a number of “traditional” groups/associations who follow a traditional missal and who follow a certain order’s spirituality.

The problem is that the Orders themselves do not recognize them as being part of their order.

I had a discussion with someone who is interested in joining a “traditional Dominican” order which has some affiliation with the SSPX. I told him that they are not recognized by the Dominicans and he pretty much said so what? He said they follow Dominican spirituality and no one owns Dominican spirituality.

What are your thoughts on this?


#2

Well, if he doesn't care that the group isn't recognized by the Dominicans, I think that's his decision. Now, if they were telling him (or he was claiming) that they ARE officially part of the order, when they're not, that's different, that would certainly be wrong.

Being a member of an order -- whether as a priest/friar/brother, sister/nun, or secular -- is a vocation to be discerned. A lot of people just prefer a certain spirituality, and the "order" part isn't important to them.


#3

I can follow Jesuit Spirituality, but I can’t put SJ after my name!


#4

I don't know - I think it becomes difficult to follow certain spiritualities as they are instituted by the Founders when a main part of the Charism is obedience when by very nature you yourself are schismatic. For instance I have met some that say they are Franciscan SSPX. However St Francis believed in Obedience to the Magisterium - would he have followed what the SSPX does today - I certainly think not. The Jesuits even have a vow of obedience in some cases. So I think it goes to the question how much of the charism is one following and how much is one rejecting when one does this.


#5

[quote="joanofarc2008, post:4, topic:280695"]
I don't know - I think it becomes difficult to follow certain spiritualities as they are instituted by the Founders when a main part of the Charism is obedience when by very nature you yourself are schismatic. For instance I have met some that say they are Franciscan SSPX. However St Francis believed in Obedience to the Magisterium - would he have followed what the SSPX does today - I certainly think not. The Jesuits even have a vow of obedience in some cases. So I think it goes to the question how much of the charism is one following and how much is one rejecting when one does this.

[/quote]

This is exactly what I said to my friend. I told him that obedience is important to any order, so then how can one say they belong to an Order, when the order does not agree. Strange outlook.


#6

Self delusion seems to be one of the symptoms of people adhering to SSPX beliefs.


#7

SSPX needs prayers.

Anyone can follow the spirituality that attracts them. Catholics have a right to associate.

The group in question may not be aggregated to the Dominicans yet, but they may have it in mind.

I look forward to the day when the SSPX is reconciled with Rome. We need their charisms.

Blessings,
cloisters


#8

A group can certainly follow a particular spirituality without being a part of the order from which it originated. The Oblates of the Virgin Mary for example follow Ignatian Spirituality quite successfully and they do not claim at all to be part of the Society of Jesus.

That is a very different thing however than claiming that you are a part of something when you are not. In the "traditionalist" example given above, Dominic would never have tolerated disobedience to the Holy See, so the choice of Dominican Spirituality in that situation would be a distinct mismatch. Dominic allowed discussion and debate with the goal of making a good decision as well as learning from those who disagree with you. In fact, those two things are such hallmarks of the Dominican charism that more than one Master of the Order has stated that they are to be maintained even at the expense of dragging an important decision out. In short, whatever it is can wait for the brothers to have their say on the matter at hand. However, once a decision had been made it was over and it was time to move on. St. Dominic also allowed for a democratic governence of the order, to include individual priories and provinces. Again, he did this even at the expense of rapidity of response. However, that did not include the relationship between the order and the Holy See. In that relationship, the Order of Preachers is to obey, and do so joyfully.

I kind of like how it was described when I was in the Army: "Swift, willing, and cheerful obedience... ".

In fact, I am at a loss to think of a type of Catholic spirituality which does not call for obedience.


#9

The issues with the SSPX apply to laypeople too, since we are all to be obedient to the pope and bishops.

So a layperson privately discerning to support the SSPX or a religious deciding to do so seems like the same issue to me, equally right or equally wrong.

I personally would not join an SSPX third order, but If there were some sort of third order that was traditional, I would be so interested. Especially if I could find a trad-leaning Dominican or Carmelite third order (I am drawn to both).


#10

[quote="newyorkcatholic, post:9, topic:280695"]
Especially if I could find a trad-leaning Dominican or Carmelite third order (I am drawn to both).

[/quote]

There is only one Lay order in the Order of Preachers which is the Dominican Laity. The Order of Preachers is quite traditional and has been making a concerted effort towards use of the Dominican Rite in recent years. Depending on where you live, find a Lay Dominican chapter which is close to a prior or even a house of study and see what things are like. If the Dominican Rite is not celebrated, the OF tends to be celebrated with great reverence by Dominicans as well.


#11

Currently, I am discerning a vocation to a Carmelite Third Order. But I am finding that my devotion to the Extraordiary Form is in direct conflict with my desire to be a member of the Carmelite Third Order, either OCDS or TOC. While I would be very happy to pray the LotH in group and go to OF masses in group, when praying alone I would feel more comfortable praying the Hours that coordinate with my ordo and liturgy. I've actually been praying Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the DivinumOfficium.com for months now, and feel very comfortable with praying those Hours as part of a Rule of life. However, while the Latin version of the prayers was approved for priests in Summorum Pontificum, no special consideration was given for Third Orders.

It is my understanding that to be under obedience to the OCDS constitution, I would need to pray the LotH hours no matter what. The only group that I know of that lives under the Rule of the Carmelite order and is affiliated with an Extraordinary Form parish does so outside of the umbrella of their Carmelite providential leadership (although they are affiliated with their local Carmelite convent and have approval from their local Diocean bishop).

I pray that someday there are Third Orders that are both formally affiliated and catechized under the leadership of the Order, but are also encouraged in their devotion to the Traditional liturgy. I have no idea if or when that will happen, though.


#12

[quote="HonoraDominum, post:11, topic:280695"]
Currently, I am discerning a vocation to a Carmelite Third Order. But I am finding that my devotion to the Extraordiary Form is in direct conflict with my desire to be a member of the Carmelite Third Order, either OCDS or TOC. While I would be very happy to pray the LotH in group and go to OF masses in group, when praying alone I would feel more comfortable praying the Hours that coordinate with my ordo and liturgy. I've actually been praying Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the DivinumOfficium.com for months now, and feel very comfortable with praying those Hours as part of a Rule of life. However, while the Latin version of the prayers was approved for priests in Summorum Pontificum, no special consideration was given for Third Orders.

It is my understanding that to be under obedience to the OCDS constitution, I would need to pray the LotH hours no matter what. The only group that I know of that lives under the Rule of the Carmelite order and is affiliated with an Extraordinary Form parish does so outside of the umbrella of their Carmelite providential leadership (although they are affiliated with their local Carmelite convent and have approval from their local Diocean bishop).

I pray that someday there are Third Orders that are both formally affiliated and catechized under the leadership of the Order, but are also encouraged in their devotion to the Traditional liturgy. I have no idea if or when that will happen, though.

[/quote]

The reason why you would need to pray the LotH in either the OCDS or the T.O.Carm.s is because of their Ordo. As a religious order the Carmelites have their won liturgical calendar (Ordo) and it is set to the OF Calendar in the Latin Church. Joining that community would mean that you would need to celebrate the Saints of the Order as proscribed within the Carmelite Ordo.

Part of joining an order is the taking up of its practices even when they differ from your own preference.


#13

[quote="ByzCath, post:12, topic:280695"]
The reason why you would need to pray the LotH in either the OCDS or the T.O.Carm.s is because of their Ordo. As a religious order the Carmelites have their won liturgical calendar (Ordo) and it is set to the OF Calendar in the Latin Church. Joining that community would mean that you would need to celebrate the Saints of the Order as proscribed within the Carmelite Ordo.

Part of joining an order is the taking up of its practices even when they differ from your own preference.

[/quote]

I can still celebrate the Carmelite Ordo and the holy days for the saints while still being a member of my EF parish. As a matter of fact, I already do - I've gone to the Carmelite OF chapel to celebrate feasts that are at different places than the EF calendar, specifically to be with my Carmelite family, at least in spirit since I am only a member of the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular and not a true member of the family as Third Order would be. Heck, I have the OF ordo printed out as a sticker in my EF missal, with notations as to which saints are not in the EF ordo or are in different places. And in my Proper of the Saints, I have notations on the days where a Carmelite saint is celebrated in the OF that is not in the EF ordo. (See below evidence of my serious liturgical goofiness).

But for the other 300+ days of the year that I'm not at a Carmelite Parish celebrating a specific Carmelite holy day, or (potentially) going to a Third Order Carmelite meeting, I would still be in my EF parish, celebrating my EF liturgy and the saints on the EF calendar. I feel confident that most of the people who are in OCDS chapters do not follow the full Carmelite Ordo in their parishes and yet manage to make it through just fine. They add special readings for Carmelite saints to the standard LotH readings, and I could do the same. I have found great spiritual fruit from reading the 1962 Office and attending Daily Mass, both liturgies enriching each other, and would be at a great loss to have to sacrifice either one.

I just wish there was a way for me to attend my FSSP parish and pray the same Office as the priests who listen to my confessions and offer the Mass for me, while at the same time gaining the graces from living life underneath the Rule of the Carmelite Order and as a member of the Carmelite family. It obviously cannot happen right now, but I hope someday I can find a way to fulfill what I truly feel is a vocational calling.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uzpmuWlSAKU/T5W1RXCeWQI/AAAAAAAAAFw/6CgsoIlrjPk/s401/ordo.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3sXyPkfqi4Y/T5W1OVq8aKI/AAAAAAAAAFg/BiRkFE1Jaac/s401/Andes.jpg


#14

[quote="HonoraDominum, post:13, topic:280695"]
I can still celebrate the Carmelite Ordo and the holy days for the saints while still being a member of my EF parish. As a matter of fact, I already do - I've gone to the Carmelite OF chapel to celebrate feasts that are at different places than the EF calendar, specifically to be with my Carmelite family, at least in spirit since I am only a member of the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular and not a true member of the family as Third Order would be. Heck, I have the OF ordo printed out as a sticker in my EF missal, with notations as to which saints are not in the EF ordo or are in different places. And in my Proper of the Saints, I have notations on the days where a Carmelite saint is celebrated in the OF that is not in the EF ordo. (See below evidence of my serious liturgical goofiness).

But for the other 300+ days of the year that I'm not at a Carmelite Parish celebrating a specific Carmelite holy day, or (potentially) going to a Third Order Carmelite meeting, I would still be in my EF parish, celebrating my EF liturgy and the saints on the EF calendar. I feel confident that most of the people who are in OCDS chapters do not follow the full Carmelite Ordo in their parishes and yet manage to make it through just fine. They add special readings for Carmelite saints to the standard LotH readings, and I could do the same. I have found great spiritual fruit from reading the 1962 Office and attending Daily Mass, both liturgies enriching each other, and would be at a great loss to have to sacrifice either one.

I just wish there was a way for me to attend my FSSP parish and pray the same Office as the priests who listen to my confessions and offer the Mass for me, while at the same time gaining the graces from living life underneath the Rule of the Carmelite Order and as a member of the Carmelite family. It obviously cannot happen right now, but I hope someday I can find a way to fulfill what I truly feel is a vocational calling.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uzpmuWlSAKU/T5W1RXCeWQI/AAAAAAAAAFw/6CgsoIlrjPk/s401/ordo.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3sXyPkfqi4Y/T5W1OVq8aKI/AAAAAAAAAFg/BiRkFE1Jaac/s401/Andes.jpg

[/quote]

I am sorry about my post. When I said "their own Ordo" I meant to say "our own Ordo" as I am a Carmelite brother.

I understand what you are saying and find no issues with it.

If I was you and wanted to join a Carmelite third order I would bring this up. The celebration of the Carmelite saints do not just occur at Mass. Those third order members who do not attend a Carmelite parish still celebrate the saints in the hours. If you can work this out with the EF Office then great. Again, I would have no problem with that. I would discuss it with the formation team of the third order and see if this would be allowed.

Understand though that the Carmelites are not really an order dedicated to the EF. We have our own rite (that is the O.Carm, have our own rite, the OCDs do not) and hopefully someday it will be celebrated again.

I privately pray a byzantine compline as I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic in the Latin order.


#15

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