Can anyone field these?


#1

At the suggestion of another member, I’m re-asking the following questions here in the Apologetics forum. Can anybody help me address these …

Catholics have one official doctrine, but there is more variety within the Catholic tradition than most protertant traditions.

  1. Infant or Adult baptism? the Cathol;ic church immersed hundreds of year ago - so that denoomination does not agree with its own history - or is at least incomnsistent
  2. Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will? Calvinism finds much of its human roots in Augustinian thought yer the Cahtholic church later took a semipelagian position in opposition to Augustine’s doctrine.
  3. Once Saved Always Saved? Yet those on bothsides of the protestant divide agree that salvation is something that one may be given in this life - not someting that is in doubt until after death - both sides also agree that one is saved by the merits of Christ alone rather than the human efforts of the saints. priuests. or others
  4. Can You Lose Your Salvation? You are correct we do disagree about that issue , but at least we have a salvation to lose. john wesley, who is on the other side of that debate from me will be in the same heaven as myself because He trusted the work of Christ rather than the work of men. Mthjodists and Baptists are much closer to each other and say, Paul - than Catholics who have invented an extra-biblical approach to salvation
  5. **Is there Assurance of Salvation? **Most Arminians and Calvinists say Yes!
  6. Divorce? At least we do not have the play actinng of annulments. We do disagree with each other, but at least we are struggling to submit ourselves to the revealed Word of God rather than imposing a human concept of marriage upon folks
  7. **Abortion **- There is no disagreement among Bible-believing protestants.
  8. **Is prophecy still given? **All protestant agree that no prophecy on a level with the Bible is being given
  9. Are there still Miracles? All protestant agree that God can work a miracle any time He chooses to do so - and that He does in fact work miracles continously.
  10. Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith? A few protestans believe soch a thing, but we gwnerally belive that God in in charge rather than ourselves and that He works miracles as He determines best rather than at our whim.
  11. Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians? I hope so, but it is not an issue that affects either justification or sanctification.
  12. Premillenialism or Postmillenialism? Ditto above, but of course before Augustine the early Catholic Church - before ther really was an RCC - had a number who saw some sort of litteral millenium
  13. Will there even be a millennium? Basically a repeat question.
    14 Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not? We all agree that God gave thegifts of tongues at Pentecost and that Paul regulated that display of the gift in his first letter to the Corinthians. There is disagreement among us in our efforts to be true to God’s revealed Word, but that is not a vital issue as we have protestant on both sides of that issue who happily work together on the staff of this forum
  14. **Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?**All protestant belive there is a real Baptism of the Hoily Spirit - Prebyterians, Bethren, Methodist, Baptists, etc
  15. Are demons real? All Bible-beliving protestans believe they are real. (The RCC has its skeptics as well)
  16. Is Jesus physically present in Communion? None of us believe that the bread and wine are turned into human flesh and blood - and all protestant are in agreement agaist such which is practical idolatry. (Note, Lutherans believe that He is present with the bread, Reformed believe He is spritually present with the bread, whi;le Baptists and others take the Jesus words in the Upper Room in their natural sense - the bread was in His actual hand and clealy distinct fron His physical body - therefore He could only have meant that the bread was his body in a way other than ina physical sense.)
  17. Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation? Though there is some inconsistency - the vast majority of protestans say no - for we do not see the church as the dispenser of salvation, but we see God as the one who gives salvation,

#2

About this:

[LIST]
*]10. Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith? A few protestans believe soch a thing, but we gwnerally belive that God in in charge rather than ourselves and that He works miracles as He determines best rather than at our whim.[/LIST]- no, they are not. They come if & as God Wills, not as we will. God is not to be manipulated; He cannot be, & it sinful to try.

That’s one down :o - hope that helps. A lot of the questions imply or state positions hardly different from some forms of Catholicism.


#3

7. Abortion - There is no disagreement among Bible-believing protestants.

HAH!!!


#4

1. Infant or Adult baptism?

A: Yes. Catholic parents will baptize their children, but if one is a convert as an adult, they will be baptized then.
Catholic Catechism: 1213 - 1284

2. Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will?

A. Neither. The Catholic concept differs from both. Also, the paradox of free will and God’s sovereignty is a mystery
Catholic Catechism: 1730 - 1748.

*3. Once Saved Always Saved? *

A. In short, Salvation isn’t a thing or object, but a journey or as Pope John Paul II would say “a state of being”. One can be in a state of Grace and still sin, but one can leave that state as well.
Catholic Catechism: 1127 - 1129, 2017 - 2029

*4. Can You Lose Your Salvation? *

A. Again, Salvation is a journey not an object. We cannot “lost” salvation as if it was a set of car keys. Neither do Catholics believe it is permanent like a tattoo where we can do whatever we want and still have it.

*5. Is there Assurance of Salvation? *

A. There is assurance of God’s Mercy and Grace. In the end salvation is a reality that exists between man and the Holy Spirit. No one can know for sure if another is saved. We can have assurance, but only from our own conscience. No other man can give it to us. (As a note, this is one thing that made me convert to the Catholic Church. While many accuse the Catholic Church of playing too big a role in faith, it is the only Church with the humility to admit it cannot promise anyone salvation. It can only show the way!)

6. Divorce? At least we do not have the play actinng of annulments. We do disagree with each other, but at least we are struggling to submit ourselves to the revealed Word of God rather than imposing a human concept of marriage upon folks

A. The Catholic Church is the only Christian organization with consistent behavior and doctrine toward divorce. Annulments aren’t frivolous and require much review to approve. God hates divorce, but annulments are there for extreme cases when a marriage was perverted from the start.
Catholic Catechism: 1601 - 1666

7. Abortion - There is no disagreement among Bible-believing protestants.

A. You won’t find any here either.

*8. Is prophecy still given? *

A. Yes, prophecy is given from time to time, like Our Lady of Fatima. However, new prophecy is tested against Scripture and must not contradict. New prophecy is rare and undergoes great scrutiny.

*9. Are there still Miracles? *

**A. Yes, but miracles aren’t declared publicly as such until review and confirmation. That doesn’t mean there aren’t legitimate miracles everyday, they are just not touted unless verified. **

10. Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith? A few protestans believe soch a thing, but we gwnerally belive that God in in charge rather than ourselves and that He works miracles as He determines best rather than at our whim.

**A. Pretty much the same here. **

*11. Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians? *

A. We don’t believe in a Rapture. That doctrine was introduced by John Darby (invented by Margaret Macdonald) around 1830. The Catholic position is that we are happy to die for Christ during persecution.

*12. Premillenialism or Postmillenialism? *

A. Same answer as 11.

*13. Will there even be a millennium?.
*
A. The Catholic Church doesn’t have a firm interpretation of the millennium.

*14 Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not? *

A. Catholics believe in all the Gifts of the Spirit, but place little importance on tongues (as does Scripture). 1 Cor. 12 I do know there are charismatic Catholic services.

15. Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?

A. The Catholic Church does not separate the two. Baptism in water and Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two sides of a similar event. However, Catholics do acknowledge they may not happened at the same time. For example if someone “dies on the way to the baptism”, they will have received baptism of the Spirit.
Catholic Catechism: 1281

*16. Are demons real? All Bible-beliving protestans believe they are real. *

A. Yes! The Catholic Church still practices exorcisms as well.

17. Is Jesus physically present in Communion?

A. Yes. Catholic Catechism: 1410 As a note, early Christians were accused of being cannibals for this belief. You can read examples of this in the “Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs”

*18. Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation? *

A. Sacraments are part of the journey of Salvation. They don’t have “checked off”, again like the whole “die on the way to baptism”. Besides, most the Sacraments are just common sense. In other words, why wouldn’t a “saved” man participate in them?


#5

A lot of this is dealt with in the articles here: Apocalypsis


#6

I’m sorry. I should have phrased this different – How do I address the anti-Catholic Comments

Catholics have one official doctrine, but there is more variety within the Catholic tradition than most protertant traditions.

  1. Infant or Adult baptism? the Cathol;ic church immersed hundreds of year ago - so that denoomination does not agree with its own history - or is at least incomnsistent
  2. Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will? Calvinism finds much of its human roots in Augustinian thought yer the Cahtholic church later took a semipelagian position in opposition to Augustine’s doctrine.
  3. Once Saved Always Saved? Yet those on bothsides of the protestant divide agree that salvation is something that one may be given in this life - not someting that is in doubt until after death - both sides also agree that one is saved by the merits of Christ alone rather than the human efforts of the saints. priuests. or others
  4. Can You Lose Your Salvation? You are correct we do disagree about that issue , but at least we have a salvation to lose. john wesley, who is on the other side of that debate from me will be in the same heaven as myself because He trusted the work of Christ rather than the work of men. Mthjodists and Baptists are much closer to each other and say, Paul - than Catholics who have invented an extra-biblical approach to salvation
  5. Is there Assurance of Salvation? Most Arminians and Calvinists say Yes!
  6. Divorce? At least we do not have the play actinng of annulments. We do disagree with each other, but at least we are struggling to submit ourselves to the revealed Word of God rather than imposing a human concept of marriage upon folks
  7. Abortion - There is no disagreement among Bible-believing protestants.
  8. Is prophecy still given? All protestant agree that no prophecy on a level with the Bible is being given
  9. Are there still Miracles? All protestant agree that God can work a miracle any time He chooses to do so - and that He does in fact work miracles continously.
  10. Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith? A few protestans believe soch a thing, but we gwnerally belive that God in in charge rather than ourselves and that He works miracles as He determines best rather than at our whim.
  11. Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians? I hope so, but it is not an issue that affects either justification or sanctification.
  12. Premillenialism or Postmillenialism? Ditto above, but of course before Augustine the early Catholic Church - before ther really was an RCC - had a number who saw some sort of litteral millenium
  13. Will there even be a millennium? Basically a repeat question.
    14 Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not? We all agree that God gave thegifts of tongues at Pentecost and that Paul regulated that display of the gift in his first letter to the Corinthians. There is disagreement among us in our efforts to be true to God’s revealed Word, but that is not a vital issue as we have protestant on both sides of that issue who happily work together on the staff of this forum
  14. Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?All protestant belive there is a real Baptism of the Hoily Spirit - Prebyterians, Bethren, Methodist, Baptists, etc
  15. Are demons real? All Bible-beliving protestans believe they are real. (The RCC has its skeptics as well)
  16. Is Jesus physically present in Communion? None of us believe that the bread and wine are turned into human flesh and blood - and all protestant are in agreement agaist such which is practical idolatry. (Note, Lutherans believe that He is present with the bread, Reformed believe He is spritually present with the bread, whi;le Baptists and others take the Jesus words in the Upper Room in their natural sense - the bread was in His actual hand and clealy distinct fron His physical body - therefore He could only have meant that the bread was his body in a way other than ina physical sense.)
  17. Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation? Though there is some inconsistency - the vast majority of protestans say no - for we do not see the church as the dispenser of salvation, but we see God as the one who gives salvation,

… comments that the Catholic Church is either not unified in it’s teaching or changes it’s teaching around and is therefore no different from the Protestants who disagree with each other and have different teachings.

I would appreciate help with addressing it from that perspective. Thanks in advance.


#7

Baptism of infants or of adults has always been valid, but not of already baptised persons. Baptism by total immersion has always been valid, but not always been the custom. Adult baptism is rare in societies where virtually all infants are baptised, but not unknown.


#8
  1. Baptism I think it was during the plague that sprinkling water over the head replaced full immersion as the norm, partly for expediency and partly to conserve water. Today either method is considered valid.
  2. Prophecy Is God alive? Does He still work through His people? Prophecy must be defined in order to be understood. Prophecy is not the prediction of the future. Prophecy is God’s Word spoken through an individual. This Word may be a Word of encouragement or admonishment. God does continue to choose spokesmen who give voice to how He might direct His people.
  3. There are definitely miracles. Jesus told his disciples, "You will do the works I do and greater still."
    14/15 Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Speaking in Tongues. For Catholics, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a new Sacrament. It is the release of the gifts each of us has been given in Baptism and Confirmation. Speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church has been embraced by the Vatican. Our gifts are placed at the service of the community for its upbuilding. They are not the focus of our spiritual life.
  4. Satan is real but “He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.”
  5. When we hold the Eucharist in our hands and take Him into our lives, He is as close as when Mary held Him in her arms.
  6. The Sacraments are means of receiving God’s grace. Through the Sacraments God becomes a greater part of my life.

Each of these questions can be dealt with in an extensive manner.


#9

As far as the Catholic Church disagreeing within itself, just point out the fact that we have a Catechism. Few protestant denominations (if any) have all their beliefs written out so well. The only real disagreements in the Church come from uneducated Catholics who don’t really know what the Church believes.

As far as the Catholic Church changing it’s mind on things, there have been liturgical changes through the years, as well as clarification or refinement of doctrine. HOWEVER, all major doctrine has remained unchanged.

There are two sources that prove this, the first is Summa Theologica written by Thomas Aquanis which “sums up” all Catholic theology and was written around 1265. Second, there is a great reference book called “A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs” you can buy which was, ironically enough, written by a Protestant. The book contains only letters written by the early Church fathers, many as early as 40 A.D. One can read for himself the thinking and doctrine of the Church fathers. “The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs” helped me convert to Catholicism because I found out the early Christians were Catholic!


#10

You need to post these as individual threads. The forum rules ask that we not post multiple questions in one thread.

Each one of these is a topic all its own. Post them individually. And, discuss them with the person who proposed them.


#11

It is one question. It was a challenge to the unity and consistency [sp] of the Catholic faith and a few examples were brought up …

[LIST]
*]Catholics have one official doctrine, but there is more variety within the Catholic tradition than most protertant traditions.

*]the Cathol;ic church immersed hundreds of year ago - so that denoomination does not agree with its own history - or is at least incomnsistent

*]the Cahtholic church later took a semipelagian position in opposition to Augustine’s doctrine.

*]than Catholics who have invented an extra-biblical approach to salvation

*]before Augustine the early Catholic Church - before ther really was an RCC - had a number who saw some sort of litteral millenium

*]all protestant are in agreement agaist such which is practical idolatry[/LIST]

Instead of cluttering the board, I placed them all in one thread since they had a common theme to them. Sorry if this was incorrect protocol.

Thank you.


#12

You may as well walk away from such foolishness because you are trying to respond to allegations without substance. It’s like chasing the wind.

It’s quite easy to make such but if asked they will not supply any links of evidence to support their assertions because they do not exist. That’s why you walk away…because you are not dealing with real objections but fictitious propaganda. It’s like responding to some of the SDA stuff. No basis in fact, but damning if one is dumb enough to believe it without asking for proof.

We had a whole big ole debate on here sometime back on Catholic vs n-C unity and I’m sure if you do a search you’ll find it. the odds are it’s the same lame arguments that you are being fed there.


#13

Wise advice


#14

the Cathol;ic church immersed hundreds of year ago - so that denoomination does not agree with its own history - or is at least incomnsistent

The NT Church immersed, but also baptized by other means apart from immersion. For instance, St. Paul was baptized in a house. How was that immersion?
“Anani’as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened.” (Acts 9:17-19)
The 1st or 2nd century text called the Didache gives the most ancient testimony of the post-apostolic period for the manner of baptism:
“Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” (Didache, ch. 7)
Thus, the tradition of baptizing by immersion is quite Catholic, as are other means such as pouring. Rather consistent. :wink:

In contrast, John Smyth (1609), began the first Baptist congregation when he baptized himself (where’s that in Scripture?), then baptized the others … by pouring. According to Baptist scholar William B. Lipphard, pouring was employed for baptism by these initial Baptists until 1641. (*Religions of America, *Rosten, L., Ed., revised edition, 1975, pg. 36).


#15

Others have addressed the major points but I’d like to address this one.

“Is prophecy still given? All protestant agree that no prophecy on a level with the Bible is being given”

Mainstream Protestants, yes. But Seventh Day Adventists believe that their founder had prophecies that were additions to the general revelation of New Testament times.


#16

Assurance of Salvation?

I think of this as a “yes” but not as a guarantee. What do I mean?

It is like a marriage. Can I have assurance of a marriage until death do us part? Most people enter marriage with a “yes” in their minds.

In this case, Jesus is our spouse. He will be faithful to the end. The question is, will WE?


#17

Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will? Calvinism finds much of its human roots in Augustinian thought yer the Cahtholic church later took a semipelagian position in opposition to Augustine’s doctrine.
Catholics are neither Calvinists, nor Arminians. Although Calvin quotes from Augustine, his doctrines contradict Augustine. When Protestants claim that Catholics are in “opposition to Augustine’s doctrine,” they show that they have little understanding of what Augustine actually taught.

Some years back, a young Calvinist and I were having a conversation about the difference between Augustine’s teaching and Calvins. After he realized that Calvin was wrong about his interpretation of Augustine, he began to doubt Calvin’s interpretation of Scritpure too (go figure). :wink:

With regard to predestination and free will, Catholicism teaches both, just as Augustine did.

What I’ll do is put together some excerpts of prior conversations on my blog, then link them here. :wink:

Here’s a blog related Augustine and “eternal security”

Did Augustine teach eternal security?


#18

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