Can Christ forgive Lucifer?


#1

Has the timer run out on Lucifer?

Wasn’t he once good? If so, then is he irreparably evil?

What if he made an act of perfect contrition to Jesus? Could he be saved?

I’m sorry if this is a rehash of an old thread. I’m not so interested in finding the answer as I am in asking the question, so I don’t expect anything in particular for responses.

Alan


#2

I believe that is more or less out of the realm of what has been revealed to us. The general consensus has been that because of the higher plane of existence the fallen angels were on in the first place, their decision to oppose God was total in irrevocable, thier “heards” where totally hardened by the very act of turning against God. And as non-humans, and ones who’s falling predates the fall of man (and perhaps even the creation of man), they would not share in opportunity for redemption gained for mankind through Christ’s suffering on the cross.


#3

The question is not whether Christ can forgive Lucifer. Christ’s forgiveness is always offered.

The question is whether Lucifer can repent. As an angel, he has no basis to repent and will never change his mind. Angels make decision once only. They have no sensory input or emotions which would influence a change. When an angel makes up his mind, he makes it up for eternity.


#4

As I understand it, once you are in the presence of God, as the angels are/were, the veil which stands between us and God is not present. As such, they acted in full knowledge of what they were doing and to whom they were being disobedient. Their decision is fixed, permanent. Remember that God rejects no-one, but he gives us, even the angels, the free will to choose to reject or love him.

Satan, in the sin of presumption, chose to be like God, even though he is only a creature. I personally believe he was jealous of humanity when he was asked to assist us in our existance, as we were created in the likeness of God. Pride, Presumption and Jealously are serious sins that lead to ever greater falls from Grace.

Hope you’re getting the responses you desired when you started this thread.

CARose


#5

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Has the timer run out on Lucifer?

Wasn’t he once good? If so, then is he irreparably evil?

What if he made an act of perfect contrition to Jesus? Could he be saved?

I’m sorry if this is a rehash of an old thread. I’m not so interested in finding the answer as I am in asking the question, so I don’t expect anything in particular for responses.

Alan
[/quote]

Nope, Lucifer is heading down…


#6

One of the things that makes this a difficult issue is the question of time. As human beings living in the physical world, time is one of our constraining elements. So it is a fact of our existence that, for us, there is a “then”, a “now”, and a “later”.

Not so for the purely spiritual beings (God Himself, the angels, the faithful departed, and the demons). For them, there is only the eternal “now”. Because of that, we really can’t think of Lucifer as “once” disobeying, and “later” repenting and being forgiven. His is an eternal, irrevocable “NO!”.


#7

What would you say about the Book of Revelation and/or where Christ said that Hell was for ‘the Devil and His Angels’.
I am sure IF Satan repented, he has a chance but his place is already secure when Christ lets Time experience His Victory…however we already Know the Victory is Christ’s. :cool:


#8

I know that about a year or two ago I was wrestling with the whole thought of a Hell and how unfair it seemed (I’ve come to grips with it now). I finally had to simply accept the church’s teachings until I had an opportunity to better understand things.

This is what the Catechism has to say on the subject:

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as their is no repentance for men after death."
Hope this helps,

CARose


#9

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Has the timer run out on Lucifer?

Wasn’t he once good? If so, then is he irreparably evil?

What if he made an act of perfect contrition to Jesus? Could he be saved?

I’m sorry if this is a rehash of an old thread. I’m not so interested in finding the answer as I am in asking the question, so I don’t expect anything in particular for responses.

Alan
[/quote]

No help (salvation) for angels (Heb 2:16).


#10

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Has the timer run out on Lucifer?

Wasn’t he once good? If so, then is he irreparably evil?

What if he made an act of perfect contrition to Jesus? Could he be saved?

I’m sorry if this is a rehash of an old thread. I’m not so interested in finding the answer as I am in asking the question, so I don’t expect anything in particular for responses.

Alan
[/quote]

I agree with the posters who say that Lucifer’s decision was irrevocable. The reason for this can be found in your very first question: “Has the timer run out for Lucifer?”

Strictly speaking, there is no “timer” to run out, since God and angelic beings exist outside of time. Therefore, there can be no repentance, or changing one’s mind, once an atemporal being has exercised his will. To do so would require duration – and duration only makes sense in the context of time.

We should be thankful that we exist in time, since it gives us the gift of reconsidering, repenting, re-choosing – none of which will be available to us in eternity. Consider the awesomeness of this gift – man has a luxury that is not even bestowed upon the angels!


#11

Wait – weren’t Lucifer and the other fallen angels loyal to God at one point, before the Fall? Doesn’t the act of turning against that represent an angel changing its mind?


#12

Peace be with you!

Like other posters have said, Christ’s forgivness is always there, waiting to be accepted. I believe that Lucifer has gone too far to ever come back, and so does God. Remember, while God doesn’t predestine us, He knows what will happen; what we will choose. In Revelation John tells us that he sees Satan cast into the fire to be tormented for eternity. So, I think it would be pretty safe to assume that he won’t ever repent.

I think it is sad, though. Lucifer was the first of God’s creations, and was once good: “And God saw the light, and saw that it was good.” That light was Lucifer.

In Christ,
Rand


#13

The Catholic teaching is that Satan cannot/will not be forgiven, but not because God is not willing to, but rather because Satan cannot repent. Angels have full knowledge of God, moreso than we can ever hope to have until we meet Him. As such, their will is final. Once an angel chooses to turn against God, he cannot repent, because he knew completely and without question all truth before he chose. An angel knows, more than we can ever imagine knowledge to be, of God and all He is. Therefore, an angel choosing against God chooses literally against God.

To understand this better, think of the different ways humans sin and repent. It’s possible for a person to know of God and that He is Truth and Love and yet to sin out of human weakness. Angels have perfect will, and therefore cannot sin out of weakness. It is also possible for a person to be in sin and be in rejection of God because they believe He does not exist. If a person comes to the conclusion that God does exist, then that person will repent. If they come to the conclusion that God does exist but don’t repent, we know that they will go to Hell, because they are choosing against God knowing full well what He is.

This is what Angels do. They know the truth of God. They know who He is. Therefore, when they choose against Him, they are doing exactly what the atheist is doing who chooses against God even knowing who He is.

Think about it. If a person doesn’t believe in God their whole life, we always at least have hope that they might be saved by God because they didn’t know. If a person does believe though but sins anyways, we are all but certain they’re going to Hell. Angels are just like this person. They know God, and have perfect will. Therefore, they can’t sin out of lack of knowledge, nor can they sin out of weakness. When Satan chose against God, he didn’t just sin, he literally chose to be against God and all God was. If you want to look at it another way, Satan committed the unforgiveable sin: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.


#14

[quote=JimG]The question is not whether Christ can forgive Lucifer. Christ’s forgiveness is always offered.

The question is whether Lucifer can repent. As an angel, he has no basis to repent and will never change his mind. Angels make decision once only. They have no sensory input or emotions which would influence a change. When an angel makes up his mind, he makes it up for eternity.
[/quote]

I thought I had read somewhere that angels have no free will of their own. It was a really long time ago, so I don’t remember all of the details. I’m probably wrong, but I thought that I would throw that one out there.

How can Lucifer’s decision be irrecovable? I know God has the whole exist-out-of-time thing happening, but aren’t we supposed to have a new heaven and a new earth at some point? The whole “He will come again to judge the living and the dead” thing? That would suggest that the NOW will someday end, meaning all creation does exist in time, because even heaven itself will run out of time if there’s going to be a new one. And if Lucifer’s creation…

I’m getting a headache thinking about it.


#15

[quote=HitF12]I thought I had read somewhere that angels have no free will of their own. It was a really long time ago, so I don’t remember all of the details. I’m probably wrong, but I thought that I would throw that one out there.

How can Lucifer’s decision be irrecovable? I know God has the whole exist-out-of-time thing happening, but aren’t we supposed to have a new heaven and a new earth at some point? The whole “He will come again to judge the living and the dead” thing? That would suggest that the NOW will someday end, meaning all creation does exist in time, because even heaven itself will run out of time if there’s going to be a new one. And if Lucifer’s creation…

I’m getting a headache thinking about it.
[/quote]

Angels do have free will, but they have what is called a perfect will. That means that any choice they make with their will is irrevocable, not because they can’t change their minds, but because when they make a decision they make it with complete and perfect knowledge so they already know all the facts and would never have a reason to change their minds. Any time a human changes his or her mind it is the result of some new knowledge, not matter how minor or insignificant, no matter how hard it is to notice. Angels can never have this.

As far as the new heaven, I do not believe there is such a thing. I think you may be remembering some Bible verse foggily or something.


#16

Decree of the Fourth Lateran Council in the document “Firmiter Credimus”:

Diabolus enim et alii dæmones a Deo quidem naturâ creati sunt boni, sed ipsi per se facti sunt mali.

(the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature but they by themselves have made themselves evil.)


#17

As far as the new heaven, I do not believe there is such a thing. I think you may be remembering some Bible verse foggily or something.

He’s speaking of the Resurrection.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. 1955. Imprimatur. Pages 488-496.

Dogmas on the Resurrection
All the dead will rise again on the last day with their bodies (De fide).

The dead will rise again with the same bodies as they had on earth (De Fide).

The bodies of the Just will be re-modelled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ (Sent. certa).

The bodies of the godless will rise again in incorruptibility and immortality, but they will not be transfigured.(Sent. certa)

Christ, on His second coming, will judge all men.(De fide).

The present world will be destroyed on the Last Day (Sent certa.) … Tertullian speaks of a world-conflagration in which, “the aged world and all its products will be consumed.” St Augustine stresses that the present world will not be entirely destroyed, but merely altered: “The form will pass away, but not the nature.” …
**
The present world will be restored on the Last Day (Sent. certa.)**
“The prophet Isaias foretells a new heaven and a new earth: “For behold I create new heavens and a new earth.” (65, 17; cf. 66, 22). He depicts the blessings of the new earth under the picture of world happiness (65, 17-25). Jesus speaks of the “regeneration,” that is, of the new formation of the world: “I say to you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the seat of His majesty, you shall also sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt. 19,28). …
St. Augustine teaches that the properties of the future world will be just as suited to the immortal existence of the transfigured human body as were the properties of the corruptible existence to the mortal body (De civ. DeiXX 16).”… The end of the world and its renewal brings to a conclusion the work of Christ. All enemies of the Kingdom of God are now conquered, He surrenders the overlordship to God the Father, without however divesting Himself of the lordship and royal power founded in the Hypostatic Union. With the end of the world there begins the perfected Lordship of God which is the ultimate object of the whole Creation and the final meaning of all human history."


Sorry from veering from Subject. Just thought it was important to know that New Heaven and New Earth are dogmatic truths, albeit, little known.


Also … I think everything people have said regarding Satan’s inability to repent is right on the money.

I wanted to add one more thing: God took on human nature so that the reparation for our sins could take on infinite nature. Did God ever take on the nature of the Angels??? Don’t know. The essence of God is love, yes, but the essence of a spiritual being is not necessarily that of love. This brings up another interesting question: What is the essence of spiritual beings? Did the essence of the angels who passed God’s test permanently become love (to differeing degrees) and the essence of the fallen angels permanently become hate (to differing degrees). Do good angels share in the Divinity of Christ? Perhaps. Maybe the fallen angels can’t be redeemed because the act of their disobedience permanently changed their nature from that of love to that of hate. ???

Also, one priest told me that angels were tested for fidelity individually, making their culpability greater, while Man was tested as a race, making individual culpability lessened. Each individual angel sinned, while Man took on Original sin after the sins of our first parents… Maybe Man could be redeemed because he was born offensive to God, and therefore, his inherent badness wasn’t all his fault. Though born in original sin, Man also is born with inherent innocence before the Age of Reason. Perhaps this factor played a role in God having mercy on us. Maybe God loved the innocence of little children SO MUCH that He decided to have mercy on us.

Again, probably confusing myself more. Going to sleep now!


#18

The problem is that Lucifer’s **will is involved.
The problem with our sins is precisely in the will, also, but our wills are not as total as that of an angel. We haver on the brink of things. We run back & forth between the desire to please God & the desire to please ourselves. We are human beings, with faults & frailties inherited as the result of original sin. So, at times, we fall; then we pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness, & work at doing a better job.
Lucifer was among the highest of God’s angels in Heaven. He had an absolutely free will–no dithering or havering. He had complete knowledge of Heaven & the Divine Presence.He was experiencing what we all devoutly hope for: the Beatific Vision.
That wasn’t enough for him. He wanted to be worshipped. He wanted to be a god himself. Milton put the words in satan’s mouth the best (IMHO): ‘Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven’.
We fall, we rise, we pray forgiveness & we fall again–and pick ourselves up again.
The devil didn’t fall; he jumped.


#19

Thank you for the great discussion. :slight_smile:

I wasn’t going anywhere in particular with this thread; I just got curious.

I’m not sure I know the exact answer, but I love all the wonderful discussion about his existing out of time, whether he can change, and all the rest.

So far I’ve really enjoyed this thread, but I don’t think I have much to contribute myself.

Alan


#20

Since “Lucifer”, the Latin translation for morning star, was a Babylonian King, then yes…he can be forgiven.


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