Can Faith Insist on Evidence

How does Faith permit required evidence? Can it?

What do you mean by “permit required evidence”?

If you mean is it possible to reconcile faith and reason, it is not only possible but mandatory. Faith is simply trusting in what your reason has revealed to be true. The notion that faith is distinct from reason is a voluntarist heresy, and in my experience it’s mostly Protestants that believe it.

Faith is belief without evidence, so your question makes very little sense.

See Hebrews 11:1

bible.cc/hebrews/11-1.htm

Peace,
Ed

How does the Catholic Church define “faith”? Is her definition the same as the one you just stated?

:thumbsup:

We may differ on the definition of evidence. Faith can not insist on anything. It’s only requirement is belief.
I still don’t understand the question the OP has.

+Christianity . . . as taught by our Holy Mother Church . . . is by no means a “religion” of human reason (ratio) alone . . . or . . . faith (fides) alone . . . at the beginning of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great’s Fides et ratio . . .

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
[size=]FIDES ET RATIO[/size]

To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between** Faith** and Reason
1998.09.14

Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM

is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . the Blessed Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . participating with . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .

[INDENT]“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of TRUTH; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving :heart: God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
[/INDENT]

Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .

[INDENT]"…Based upon God’s testimony and enjoying the supernatural assistance of grace,
[LIST]
*]FAITH is of an order
other than

*] PHILOSOPHICAL knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. **

]**PHILOSOPHY***and the sciences function within the order of natural reason;

while

*]FAITH, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32)." [/INDENT]
[/LIST]
:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/__P1.HTM

. . . :idea: . . .

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 55:8

"Thy :bible1: word
is a lamp unto my feet,
and a light unto my path"
Psalm 119:105

“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to
thy :bible1: word.”
Psalm 119:9

[RIGHT]. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+
[/RIGHT]

=warpspeedpetey;8174791]What do you mean by “permit required evidence”?

FAIR Question:)

Can one actually have “faith” if it is foundational on evidence?

=sw85;8174833]If you mean is it possible to reconcile faith and reason, it is not only possible but mandatory. Faith is simply trusting in what your reason has revealed to be true. The notion that faith is distinct from reason is a voluntarist heresy, and in my experience it’s mostly Protestants that believe it.

Frist of ALL welcome Home my friend:thumbsup:

No my question is not about faith and reason. Hadn’t thought of that BUT should have.

I am of the mind that their is a necessary place for “logic” in Faith if that is your point?

But logic does not always fulfill the obligations of “evidence.”

God Bless,
Pat

Truth is one in God but is reasoned by man in varying concepts and rational hierarchies of truths leading to the one truth that is both object and subject of God. God’s Nature reflected in His Creation and known to us by our spiritual nature by the essence and being of created things leads us to know that there is natural theology, that is unless this essence and being is denied as understandable or able to be known by us. Denying that things in themselves can be known or that truth is itself unknowable is false, but this is what makes up modern philosophy today in distinction to Scholastic philosophy.

The Church relies for the most part on Scholastic metaphysics and philosophy to describe what is known by God revealing to us the truth. Rationalism dictates that we must prove this revelation from the bottom up, from the truths of natural causes to the first cause. But the first cause is a prime reality that cannot be fathomed by us but only philosophically reasoned by known effects leading to a cause. Absolute proof is impossible from our vantage point. We are a contingent reality and God is the Prime Reality, the source and principle of this contingent reality.

The proof of faith is union with the source of creation as our end and perfection. If we are wallowing in sin with a lack of faith and if we fail in virtue, and don’t care that we are failing, have no hope, then we are not in union with the source of grace, the source of faith, and ultimate Truth, God. These are effects leading from a cause which is the way one proves anything beyond what can be understood naturally, that is philosophically. It is based in faith though, faith seeking understanding, both of which come from God and lead us back to Him.

=StrawberryJam;8174864]Faith is belief without evidence, so your question makes very little sense.

:smiley: You just made my point *

Can one actually HAVE Faith if ones understandings RELY on evidence?

How can so MANY posters requires evidence of this or that, and claim to be a people of faith?

God Bless,
Pat*

Not so sure about this. Why would we need faith if reason already revealed something to be true?

=davidv;8174908]How does the Catholic Church define “faith”? Is her definition the same as the one you just stated?

**Heb.11: 1 **“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

From the Catholic Catchism:

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature

164 Now, however, “we walk by faith, not by sight”; we perceive God as “in a mirror, dimly” and only “in part”. Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. The world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

158 “Faith seeks understanding”: it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. “The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.”

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work[s] through charity.”

God Bless,

Pat

=Jesus_123;8174981]+Christianity . . . as taught by our Holy Mother Church . . . is by no means a “religion” of human reason (ratio) alone . . . or . . . faith (fides) alone . . . at the beginning of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great’s Fides et ratio . . .

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
[size=]FIDES ET RATIO[/size]

To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between** Faith** and Reason
1998.09.14

Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM

is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . the Blessed Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . participating with . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .

[INDENT]“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of TRUTH; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving :heart: God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
[/INDENT]

Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .

[INDENT]"…Based upon God’s testimony and enjoying the supernatural assistance of grace,
[LIST]
*]FAITH is of an order
other than

*] PHILOSOPHICAL knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. **

]**PHILOSOPHY***and the sciences function within the order of natural reason;

while

*]FAITH, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32)." [/INDENT]

[/LIST]
:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/__P1.HTM

. . . :idea: . . .

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 55:8

"Thy :bible1: word
is a lamp unto my feet,
and a light unto my path"
Psalm 119:105

“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to
thy :bible1: word.”
Psalm 119:9

[RIGHT]. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+
[/RIGHT]

AMEN! And Thank you:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

Faith is all we actually have. All axioms are inductions and as such no knowledge is certain. What you are calling evidence is just faith you feel comfortable with asserting as true.

Did a clown just explode? :stuck_out_tongue:

=Earnest Bunbury;8175161]Truth is one in God but is reasoned by man in varying concepts and rational hierarchies of truths leading to the one truth that is both object and subject of God. God’s Nature reflected in His Creation and known to us by our spiritual nature by the essence and being of created things leads us to know that there is natural theology, that is unless this essence and being is denied as understandable or able to be known by us. Denying that things in themselves can be known or that truth is itself unknowable is false, but this is what makes up modern philosophy today in distinction to Scholastic philosophy.

The Church relies for the most part on Scholastic metaphysics and philosophy to describe what is known by God revealing to us the truth. Rationalism dictates that we must prove this revelation from the bottom up, from the truths of natural causes to the first cause. But the first cause is a prime reality that cannot be fathomed by us but only philosophically reasoned by known effects leading to a cause. Absolute proof is impossible from our vantage point. We are a contingent reality and God is the Prime Reality, the source and principle of this contingent reality.

The proof of faith is union with the source of creation as our end and perfection. If we are wallowing in sin with a lack of faith and if we fail in virtue, and don’t care that we are failing, have no hope, then we are not in union with the source of grace, the source of faith, and ultimate Truth, God. These are effects leading from a cause which is the way one proves anything beyond what can be understood naturally, that is philosophically. It is based in faith though, faith seeking understanding, both of which come from God and lead us back to Him.

Well Done!

Thank you,
Pat

Certainly not the faith taught by the Church; our faith is more properly understood as “trust” – trust in reason.

Again, the notion that faith can exist in the absence of reason (indeed, that it must) is the voluntarist heresy of Scotus and Ockham.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.