Can God justify objective morality?


#21

Or was it that the masons told them that they would be like gods?


#22

Anything objective is plainly seen by all. For example, no one wants to be cheated.
Anything subjective says, it might be right for you, but it is not right for me. Thus, a thief will steal from you and think that he has done something good.

Does that help?


#24

You are a mason, and your intentions here are contrary to Truth.


#25

Thanks De_Maria.

Where would slavery sit in this?


#27

We are here to do God’s will. We do this by accepting his grace. You either accept his grace or reject it. Accept it, receive eternal life. Reject it, receive eternal punishment.


#28

I am not a mason. My intentions are honourable. I am merely offering a different view based on scripture.

Did not Jesus challenge the ‘Truth’ of the time? Was He a mason?

I am not Jesus but I follow His example.


#29

Jesus was a rebel as viewed through the lens of evil.


#30

Objectively evil.

GES#27…Furthermore, whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html


#31

Who is to say I am not doing God’s will?

All the prophets were condemned for breaking with existing tradition. Jesus broke with tradition. He redefined the laws of the prophets including Moses with two commandments: to love God and to love ones neighbour, from which all laws and prophets are ‘hanging’.

Unfortunately the Greek κρέμαται for ‘hanging’ also refers to the execution method.

I can’t post any more replies… But re John the Baptist, John 1:21 John says he is not a prophet.


#32

Prophets did not break tradition. Prophets spoke the Truth and warned of the coming disasters that were headed for Israel.

Look at John the Baptist. He said repent (change your ways). His Father was a traditionalist. Nothing states he broke from tradition.


#33

Yes, because objective morality, or moral conscience in itself,
is an intrinsic gift intended for each person,
though there are people whose biology or behavior has damaged their moral conscience.
it is a gift that needs nurture to become mature and balanced

"MORAL CONSCIENCE

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

I. THE JUDGMENT OF CONSCIENCE

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50 

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51 

1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm


#34

Well, we don’t expect that everybody understand all subject matter. Killing a person is bad. Gay marriage is alright. One case which is subjective is true does the job, question objective morality.


#35

[quote=“STT, post:34, topic:453574, full:true”]
Well, we don’t expect that everybody understand all subject matter.

So, your test fails. Men’s intelligence is variable and therefore can’t be compared to God’s.

Killing a person is bad. Gay marriage is alright.

I disagree. And I’m smarter than you.:sunglasses:

One case which is subjective is true does the job, question objective morality.

How do I know that you understand the subject matter?


#36

Nah. The knowledge is very extensive and we don’t expect that everybody understand everything.

You disagree with gay marriage and I agree. Then the subject is relative.

I am saying that one case, subjective moral act, is enough to argue against objective morality.


#37

[quote=“STT, post:36, topic:453574, full:true”]
Nah. The knowledge is very extensive and we don’t expect that everybody understand everything.[/quote]

Therefore, you have disproved the OP.

You disagree with gay marriage and I agree. Then the subject is relative.

No. Opinions are subjective and relative. But there is an absolute truth which is objective.

I am saying that one case, subjective moral act, is enough to argue against objective morality.

I am saying that human minds process objective truths through subjective filters.


#38

It does not follow that because some people disagree that objective morality exists that therefore it does not exist. it is possible that the objective morality deniers are simply wrong. Some people think the world is flat, the moon landing was a fake and so on. The world is filled with irrational people.


#39

How come?

And what is the absolute truth?

What do you mean?


#40

Why people don’t deny that 1+1=2? Because it is justifiable. How about objective morality? People just have different opinions.


#41

NO,

This means that SOME [illogical] people hold that Objective Morality cannot be proven in order to subjectively TRY to “justify” their lifestyles. Historical evidence abounds that proves irrefutably this TRUTH.

Good can only exist because GOD IS GOOD

God can be accurately defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED"… Because Objective Morality is a good thing; we CAN know it is God’s Position.

God Bless you,
Patrick


#42

If god can justify objective morality, what makes you think humans can as well? That’s your first mistake.


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