I believe that homosexual activity is a sin according to the Catholic Church, and I do not believe the Church should (or will) change its stance, or that gays should be allowed to marry in the Church. I also would not attend a civil union as a sign of support. But I don’t know what to do as far is it being made legal. My instinct is that if the people in our country vote, and they vote in favor of it, then it should be made legal. I think that saying it should illegal for all the non-christian members of our society is imposing our religion on the state. As far as letting two people, who are NOT catholic, and believe what they’re doing is right- letting them get married, live with the person they love, check the little box that says “married filing jointly” on their taxes- I just think that logically this is not in discord with the law, and it makes sense to me that if non-christians want to do this, they should be allowed to according to the government. After all, the government has nothing to do with the Catholic sacrament of marriage. The government allows people to get “married” all the time that would not necessarily be allowed to get married in the Church- and then allows those “marriages” to become nullified through divorce. The bottom line is, I believe Marriage as a Catholic sacrament is different from a legal union approved by the government, and in that sense, I don’t feel guilty supporting the legalization of gay marriage. Is this wrong? Am I in dissent with the Church? I read something about not receiving communion if you support gay marriage but I’m not sure if I what I believe qualifies as full-fledged “support.” Thoughts?
Civil laws which oppose God’s law are not good laws, that’s for starters. Also, no government has the right to redefine marriage as anything other than it has always been defined. Marriage existed long before any modern government.
Let’s take another example. Abortion on demand. Governments have allowed it, but it is bad law because it violates God’s law against deliberately killing a defenseless person. Should we support it merely because it is allowed in some countries? The obvious answer is no. Nothing justifies it–not financial circumstances or desire for it or inconvenience in having a child. No one is being deprived of a right who carries a child to term no matter what the USSC ruled.
Two persons of the same sex simply cannot be married since they do not biologically qualify. It’s that simple. And for Catholics no two persons may be married who aren’t biologically a man and a woman–grace builds on nature. It’s always been that way because it is the natural order of things. Anyone can control his/her sexual desires. Sex is not compulsory for anyone, so no one is being deprived of anything who cannot marry due to natural inability to meet the basic requirements of marriage–being of opposite sexes.
God has told us that anyone who practices homosexuality will be damned to hell and you don’t think you’re doing anything wrong in supporting it? Really? :rolleyes:
How about supporting abortion…it’s even legal…I bet God wouldn’t have a problem with that either?
I don’t think someone who does it in good conscience will go to hell, no, which is why I said “non-christians” - if you are not a christian and do not believe in hell OR that you will go to hell because of it, which obviously people believe that, no, I don’t believe you’re automatically going to hell. Divorce will get you into hell too according to that logic, but a lot of people get divorced in this country who think it is okay. Why do people care so much about gay marriage, and not making sure divorce is illegal first? Also, I see abortion as worse than gay marriage. Maybe I’m wrong in that. But in either case I don’t think someone’s going to hell if they think they won’t.
Am I wrong in thinking that abortion is not comparable to gay marriage? I feel like abortion is obviously worse. And honestly I don’t see why so many catholics are spending their time protesting gay marriage when something so much WORSE like abortion is happening. I’ve also heard that of course- that the government has no right to redefine marriage- but to me that just sounds like the government should have no hand in marriage period- like we should not have any laws whatsoever about something that is just an element of religions; that the government should not allow marriages, or divorces, just let it happen in churches.
So according to your logic because you don’t think you’re doing wrong… God will be ok with your decision?
We care about gay marriage because our religion and God tell us homosexuality is wrong.
Abortion and gay marriage are both mortal sins. Debating which is worse is pointless.
? Yes, If I don’t believe something is a mortal sin, I don’t think I will go to hell for it. I know I am obligated to form my conscience and know Catholic teaching though, which is why I’m now trying to figure out whether or not God WOULD be okay with my decision to support civil unions for non-christians.
I realize it is wrong, and that is why I am conflicted. Because WE believe it is wrong, but there is a whole country out there that doesn’t think it’s wrong and is NOT going to hell for thinking that- of course not! How could God punish them for something they didn’t know was wrong? And I am questioning what my attitude should be towards these people. Should non-catholics be expected to live by our Catholic teachings.
Please do not change the subject.
Abortion and same-sex “marriage” are comparable in that they are both gravely immoral, do damage to many more than the participants and are serious social justice problems.
Abortion is, in many cases, worse. But both are serious and both deserve our resistance.
And honestly I don’t see why so many catholics are spending their time protesting gay marriage when something so much WORSE like abortion is happening.
Both are wrong, both should be opposed. Most Catholics are capable of forming opinions on more than one topic at a time.
I’ve also heard that of course- that the government has no right to redefine marriage- but to me that just sounds like the government should have no hand in marriage period- like we should not have any laws whatsoever about something that is just an element of religions; that the government should not allow marriages, or divorces, just let it happen in churches
That is one approach.
But so far, you have posited that Catholics should oppose same-sex “marriage” but to do so to a lesser degree than they oppose other moral evils. That’s not the same as “supporting” which was the title of the thread. Support is an action - an action of approval. For a Catholic to support or approve of same sex “marriage” would be a gravely immoral action. That doesn’t mean you would cease to be Catholic but that you need to reconcile yourself to the Church.
It’s not automatic, no. But it’s difficult to imagine how someone could engage in homosexual activity, and not have some sense or a funny feeling that something’s not right.
Divorce will get you into hell too according to that logic, but a lot of people get divorced in this country who think it is okay.
What makes you think that God is a democracy, or that “but, but, everyone’s doing it!” is going to be a thing you can say at the Last Judgement? Lots of people doing something wrong doesn’t mean that they aren’t going to go to Hell.
Why do people care so much about gay marriage, and not making sure divorce is illegal first? Also, I see abortion as worse than gay marriage. Maybe I’m wrong in that.
I agree with you that divorce should be illegal, barring serious situations like domestic violence. The fact that it isn’t, doesn’t make everything else okay.
But in either case I don’t think someone’s going to hell if they think they won’t.
If I get on a plane to Vancouver, and I convince myself I’m going to Toronto, I’m still not going to end up in Toronto.
If we do the things that result in Hell, we will end up in Hell, no matter what kind of positive thinking we indulge ourselves in. Life is a journey. Our choices determine the direction of our journey.
I merely used abortion as an example of bad civil law, not to compare it to anything else.
Civil governments have a hand in marriage because of the legal issues involved, such as money, child welfare, etc. Whether governments ought to be issuing marriage licenses is another matter. I sometimes think governments should not issue licenses for marriage at all, but that would lead to even more complications regarding inheritance, child welfarce, and so on. But simply because a government decides to redefine marriage doesn’t follow that they have the right to do so.
So… It sounds like you’re saying if someone does not know something is a mortal sin, they are going to hell anyway.
There is a concept of invincible ignorance which lessens culpability. If a person knows or should have known that something is sinful, they may not be responsible. In today’s world, with media and telecommunications, there are very few people this would apply to.
I guess to broaden my question, everyone’s sort of said that it’s wrong, it’s a sin, it’s damaging to society, etc… but, I don’t see how it’s damaging to society. I’m not saying “Hey I KNOW this thing is horribly evil and bad for everyone but can I give it a thumbs up anyway?” But more of a, “I have not seen that homosexual relationship cause some sort of damage to society, so why would I be against it being okay’d by the law?” And I’ve compared it to abortion, because yes, I see abortion as killing a human life, but at MOST gay marriage is illicit sexual activity just like all the other kinds rampant in our culture which should probably be addressed first. Do I think premarital sex is a sin? Yes, but do I think it should be outlawed for all America? No… Because it’s a sin not to go to Mass on Sunday, do I think everyone should be required by law to go to Mass on Sunday? No… I really believe that this is where the separation of Church & State comes into play.
If it was shown that it was damaging to society would you admit to it? OR would you try and change the subject and/or say something irrelevant like:
“it’s not that damaging to society”
“it’s not exclusive to gays”
“heterosexuals have STD’s too”
Artemis K, here are a few thoughts:
a) the short answer is that no, you can’t support gay marriage as a Catholic.
b) the longer answer is that even if you think there are good arguments in favor of say “civil unions” you have a responsibility to follow and not publicly disagree with the clear teaching of the Church, which is currently that the Church opposes civil unions as well as gay marriage, and any other such legal recognition of such relationships. This is known as “religious submission of will and intellect”.
c) The position on such things as civil unions may change (though some will say absolutely not), but we are in general bound to not publicaly disagree with the current Church position. Dissent on non-infallible matters (such as opposing “civil union”) is possible, but generally not for the general Catholic layperson. It is for theologians and the magesterium to work through these issues, and for the dissent of theologians to be expressed in particular ways and with respect to the authority of the magesterium always.
d) I completely agree with you that abortion is (in general) a worse sin and deserving of more attention than this issue.
The state doesn’t have a right or the ability to redefine reality. In fact, it has the obligation to support the building block and foundation of society, which is family. Family is where someone learns how to live as a human and learns what true love is. That’s why there can be no support for gay marriage, but also why there are problems with no fault divorce laws, etc.
I recommend the catechism’s sections on marriage, also the compendium of the social doctrine of the church.
Yes, I would acknowledge facts when presented with them.
Do you think it’s wrong to… I guess, say nothing? Like since this is something I’m mentally wrestling with, but I do submit to the Church and acknowledge that I can’t publicly support gay marriage or vote in favor of it, do I have to publicly OPPOSE it?