Can non-Catholics be saints?


#21

“a romantic tale…”
'nuff said. There is nothing to it. Period.


#22

[quote=quasimodo]“a romantic tale…”
'nuff said. There is nothing to it. Period.
[/quote]

I think the point is that modern Catholics realize that the story is based on the life of the Buddha, but medieval Catholics didn’t, so they made Josaphat (who was based on the Buddha) into a saint.

But that leads to the interesting question: would modern Catholicism consider it possible that the Buddha is in heaven?


#23

[quote=bhlincoln------from Post #9]A Saint by definition is someone who has practiced “heroic virtue” throughout their lives. In addition, multiple FIRST CLASS miracles MUST be associated through the person in question for them to be considered for the canonization process. Without this process, one cannot become a Saint.

Non-Catholics are not known to practice heroic virtue as we see Catholic Saints always have in the wrtings of the Saints. And FIRST CLASS miracles are never associated with non-Catholics historically, hence the reasons why you will never see non-Catholic Saints.

Here is a page on my site which discusses "what is a Saint?"
protestanterrors.com/saints.htm

Thanks,
BH
[/quote]

I am thinking about the Protestant girl who in Columbine was telling the person who was threathening to kill her "YOU ARE WRONG. YOU SHOULD STOP THIS BECAUSE WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS A SIN AND AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. She practiced heroic virtue!!!

So also the Muslim mother in the earthquake in AZEBARJAN-ARMENIA which killed 25,000 people.

Trapped in the darkness and earthquake ruins she cut one finger and let her infant drink her blood, The next day another finger. and then another finger. and then another firger. Not knowing whether they will ever be rescued!!!. But in the end, after several weeks, rescuers noticed them!!! THE INFANT WAS RECOVERED STILL ALIVE!!! BUT THE MOTHER ALREADY DIED!!! GREATER LOVE NO MAN HATH THAN TO GIVE HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS.

Having gone the route of go sin no more, practicing great love, maybe they will be like the person in RCIA WHO IS ON HIS WAY TO FOLLOW CHRIST AS A CATHOLIC.


#24

[quote=mom 07]During a discussion on the beautification procees of Pope John Paul II a catholic asked, " And why can’t a non-Catholic be a saint, too? Look at Martin Luther King and all those everyday Gentiles memorialized by trees at Yad Vashem. "

[/quote]

I had read somewhere that MLK was being considered, but someone posted a link that stated nothing ever came of it.

Also read that Fr. Groeschel was beating the drum to have John Wesley canonized.

May have been here. I don’t know. My CAF search function doesnt work very well.


#25

Maybe this thread should have read “Can non-Catholics be canonized saints.” We know of course that all those in heaven are saints. We also know that most protestants do not believe in prayers to those in heaven other than to God. Why would a catholic pray for intercession to a deceased non-catholic. The first step for canonization is:

[font=Times New Roman]Choosing of a vice-postulator by the postulator-general of the cause, to promote all the judicial inquiries necessary in places outside of Rome. Such inquiries are instituted by the local episcopal authority.[/font][font=Times New Roman]

The question would have to be is: who would the “local episcopal authority” be for non-catholics? [/font]


#26

These are absolutely nice things that you speak of and I am sure they please God. However the virtues which are most pleasing to God are “supernatural” virtues; those that Our Lord gives us so many examples of in Scripture; poverty, almsgiving, self-denial, meekness, chastity etc. When performed WITH SUPERNATURAL MOTIVES these are referred to as “supernatural” virtues as opposed to just natural and are most commonly practiced in the monastic life though they they may be practiced by anyone. When these supernatural virtues are practiced continually throughout someone’s life and are always done WITH SUPERNATURAL MOTIVES, this is what we call “heroic” virtue. If you read the lives of the Saints, they are FILLED with continual, repeated heroic virtues of the supernatural type, always done for the greater glory of God. Other writings such as the Catholic Encyclopedia speak about heroic virtue in depth.

Many we see in our day are practicing NATURAL virtue as opposed to SUPERNATURAL. A good example of this might be Princess Diana, who performed a lot of very good natural virtues, but most did not appear supernatural as she was not a very religious person. People are not canonized for natural virtues.

BH

[quote=The Eurasian]+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
I am thinking about the Protestant girl who in Columbine was telling the person who was threathening to kill her "YOU ARE WRONG. YOU SHOULD STOP THIS BECAUSE WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS A SIN AND AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. She practiced heroic virtue!!!

So also the Muslim mother in the earthquake in AZEBARJAN-ARMENIA which killed 25,000 people.

Trapped in the darkness and earthquake ruins she cut one finger and let her infant drink her blood, The next day another finger. and then another finger. and then another firger. Not knowing whether they will ever be rescued!!!. But in the end, after several weeks, rescuers noticed them!!! THE INFANT WAS RECOVERED STILL ALIVE!!! BUT THE MOTHER ALREADY DIED!!! GREATER LOVE NO MAN HATH THAN TO GIVE HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS.

Having gone the route of go sin no more, practicing great love, maybe they will be like the person in RCIA WHO IS ON HIS WAY TO FOLLOW CHRIST AS A CATHOLIC.
[/quote]


#27

I’m not tryingto start an argument, but I have to point out that Princess Diana was deeply religious. She was a friend of Mothere Teresa, who gave her a rosary which she prayed every day. There was a great deal of speculation about the fact that she might have been considering becoming Catholic (which would have been a leagal headache for the royal family). I am not suggesting that she was someone who should be considered a Saint(capital S), but I feel that there is a very strong possibility that she may be a saint( small s)!
At the very least, we should not presume to judge that she is not one.
God bless.


#28

[quote=mom 07]During a discussion on the beautification procees of Pope John Paul II a catholic asked, " And why can’t a non-Catholic be a saint, too? Look at Martin Luther King and all those everyday Gentiles memorialized by trees at Yad Vashem. "

How about it folks? Why are only Catholics considered for sainthood?

Terri
[/quote]

Canonisation is a recognition that someone is a Saint - not a making of a Saint: for God alone makes Saints.

Can God make those outside the visible communion of the CC holy ? Why not ? God is the gracious Redeemer Who distributes His grace according as He Wills - not as we will. And what is a Saint, if not someone who is holy ? (Holiness is itself a complex thing)

As to why Catholics alone are canonised by the CC - part of the reason is that Saints in the CC have a function as public evidence of the reality of the working of God in the CC: there is a PR aspect to canonisation :slight_smile: ##


#29

[quote=TobyLue]Maybe this thread should have read “Can non-Catholics be canonized saints.” We know of course that all those in heaven are saints. We also know that most protestants do not believe in prayers to those in heaven other than to God. Why would a catholic pray for intercession to a deceased non-catholic. The first step for canonization is:

[font=Times New Roman]Choosing of a vice-postulator by the postulator-general of the cause, to promote all the judicial inquiries necessary in places outside of Rome. Such inquiries are instituted by the local episcopal authority.[/font][font=Times New Roman]

The question would have to be is: who would the “local episcopal authority” be for non-catholics? [/font]
[/quote]

Isn’t that the first step in the canonical process ? I thought the very first step overall was devotion to someone with a reputation for holiness

Why pray to non-Catholics ? Because God has greatly blessed many Protestants with all sorts of graces - Catholics rightly remember & honour the 22 Catholic martyrs of Uganda, yet they forget their Anglican fellow-sufferers. IMHO, the 23 Anglicans who suffered death with St.Charles Lwanga & his companions are as truly martyrs of Jesus Christ as their Catholic fellow-sufferers

buganda.com/martyrs.htm


#30

One of the requirements of beatification and canonization is at least 4 FIRST class miracles (2 for beatification and 2 for canonization). These can occur through the candidate before or after death. Many times we do not know someone lived the life of a Saint but discover an incorrupt body (considered a first class miracle). Upon investigation of this incorrupt person, 100% of the time they are Catholic. Let me repeat, non-Catholics do not experience this phenomena. First class miracles like this are a sign from God that a person’s faith was solid, as we see Scripture tell us; “These signs will follow those who believe’”…
These incorruptibles I speak of are on display all over Europe for anyone to see and have been there for centuries. Not familiar with the incorrupt phenomena? Read my page on it here:

protestanterrors.com/incorruptibles.htm

There’s not ONE non-Catholic in the list. This says much.

BH

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## Canonisation is a recognition that someone is a Saint - not a making of a Saint: for God alone makes Saints.

Can God make those outside the visible communion of the CC holy ? Why not ? God is the gracious Redeemer Who distributes His grace according as He Wills - not as we will. And what is a Saint, if not someone who is holy ? (Holiness is itself a complex thing)

As to why Catholics alone are canonised by the CC - part of the reason is that Saints in the CC have a function as public evidence of the reality of the working of God in the CC: there is a PR aspect to canonisation :slight_smile: ##
[/quote]


#31

do protestants believe in saints? if they do believe in saints, then , what is saints for them? nothing right?!

beatification and canonosation is a catholic Tradition and i know that protestants doesnt believe in Tradition that is why they believe in sola scriptura. so why do they bother?!


#32

[quote=marlo]can you prove this? show us the link
[/quote]

Here is the first link I can readily generate…

newadvent.org/cathen/02297a.htm

Barlaam and Josaphat

The principal characters of a legend of Christian antiquity, which was a favourite subject of writers in the Middle Ages. The story is substantially as follows: Many inhabitants of India had been converted by the Apostle St. Thomas and were leading Christian lives. In the third or fourth century King Abenner (Avenier) persecuted the Church. The astrologers had foretold that his son Josaphat would one day become a Christian. To prevent this the prince was kept in close confinement. But, in spite of all precautions, Barlaam, a hermit of Senaar, met him and brought him to the true Faith. Abenner tried his best to pervert Josaphat, but, not succeeding, he shared the government with him. Later Abenner himself became a Christian, and, abdicating the throne, became a hermit. Josaphat governed alone for a time, then resigned, went into the desert, found his former teacher Barlaam, and with him spent his remaining years in holiness. Years after their death, the bodies were brought to India and their grave became renowned by miracles. Barlaam and Josaphat found their way into the Roman Martyrology (27 November), and into the Greek calendar (26 August). Vincent of Beauvais, in the thirteenth century, had given the story in his “Speculum Historiale”. It is also found in an abbreviated form in the “Golden Legend” of Jacobus de Voragine of the same century. **The story is a Christianized version of one of the legends of Buddha, as even the name Josaphat would seem to show. This is said to be a corruption of the original Joasaph, which is again corrupted from the middle Persian Budasif (Budsaif=Bodhisattva). **


#33

[quote=bhlincoln -----Posts #26 #30]… Many times we do not know someone lived the life of a Saint but discover an incorrupt body (considered a first class miracle). Upon investigation of this incorrupt person, 100% of the time they are Catholic. Let me repeat, non-Catholics do not experience this phenomena. …, as we see Scripture tell us; “These signs will follow those who believe’”…
These incorruptibles I speak of are on display all over Europe for anyone to see and have been there for centuries. Not familiar with the incorrupt phenomena? Read my page on it here:

protestanterrors.com/incorruptibles.htm

There’s not ONE non-Catholic in the list. This says much.

BH
[/quote]

People need to pay attention AND BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING LITERALLY when he said THIS IS BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD. UNLESS YOU EAT MY BODY AND DRINK MY BLOOD, YOU WILL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU. … AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.

In post #26, I mentioned the case of the young female student at Columbine who was telling her will-be killer that what he is doing is a sin. In post #26, I also mentioned the case of the Muslim mother trapped in the earthquake ruins who allowed her infant to drink her blood for I think about 3 weeks. Finally they were discovered. Her infant survived. But the muslim mother was already dead.

Yet despite these might deeds, THEY’VE NEVER EATEN CONSECRATED HOSTS NOR DRANK CONSECRATED WINE. THEY MIGHT BE MISSING SOMETHING!!!

When I was a grade school kid, the Catholic Nun told us in class that when we take Holy Communion, the pieces of Consecrated Host will be distributed everywhere in our body. THUS WHEN THE FATHER SEES US, IN US HE SEES HIS SON, BECAUSE THAT CONSECRATED BREAD WILL BE EVERYWHERE IN OUR BODY.


#34

[quote=BibleReader]Here is the first link I can readily generate…

newadvent.org/cathen/02297a.htm

Barlaam and Josaphat

The principal characters of a legend of Christian antiquity, which was a favourite subject of writers in the Middle Ages. The story is substantially as follows: Many inhabitants of India had been converted by the Apostle St. Thomas and were leading Christian lives. In the third or fourth century King Abenner (Avenier) persecuted the Church. The astrologers had foretold that his son Josaphat would one day become a Christian. To prevent this the prince was kept in close confinement. But, in spite of all precautions, Barlaam, a hermit of Senaar, met him and brought him to the true Faith. Abenner tried his best to pervert Josaphat, but, not succeeding, he shared the government with him. Later Abenner himself became a Christian, and, abdicating the throne, became a hermit. Josaphat governed alone for a time, then resigned, went into the desert, found his former teacher Barlaam, and with him spent his remaining years in holiness. Years after their death, the bodies were brought to India and their grave became renowned by miracles. Barlaam and Josaphat found their way into the Roman Martyrology (27 November), and into the Greek calendar (26 August). Vincent of Beauvais, in the thirteenth century, had given the story in his “Speculum Historiale”. It is also found in an abbreviated form in the “Golden Legend” of Jacobus de Voragine of the same century. The story is a Christianized version of one of the legends of Buddha, as even the name Josaphat would seem to show. This is said to be a corruption of the original Joasaph, which is again corrupted from the middle Persian Budasif (Budsaif=Bodhisattva).
[/quote]

In any event, marlo, I have a statue of the Roman Catholic saint, St. Buddha, whose feast day is November 27, on my desk, next to my statue of St. Michael.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit inspired the Church to canonize Buddha, and the Tibetan Buddhists to canonize Jesus, because these are the future avenues to evangelization of Buddhism.

I hope that Rome keeps Buddha in the Martyrology.


#35

[quote=Roman_Army]**The Church has always taught that even non-Catholics can be Saints. **
[/quote]

Where could you possibly find support for such a statement?


#36

[quote=Emerald]Where could you possibly find support for such a statement?
[/quote]

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

-Catechism of the Catholic Church

Saints are those that make it to Heaven or Purgatory.


#37

You think that means non-Catholics can die as non-Catholics, and can still be saints?

Isn’t that more than a tad bit of private interpretation on your part?


#38

Saints are those that make it to Heaven or Purgatory.

Well we all know that. Making this statement, of course, didn’t address the point at hand, which was of course your statement:

“The Church has always taught that even non-Catholics can be Saints”

Naturally, I asked for proof of any such teaching. You offered from the current catechism a statement which really didn’t support exactly what you said above.

Seems to me, though, that support is ample to show that your statement is actually against the teaching of the Church. One such example among so very many is from the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Bl. Pius IX:

"(It is an error to hold that) good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.

So it would seem clear, then, that no person who died a non-Catholic could ever be a saint, as in order to reach this conclusion, one must hold an idea which has been condemned by the Church as an error.


#39

This is not the definition of a Saint.

The definition of a Saint from “A Catholic Dictionary” (1958):
“One whose holiness of life and heroic virtue have been confirmed and recognized by the Church’s official processes of beatification and canonization”

Just because someone escapes hell does not make them a “Saint”.

BH

[quote=Roman_Army] Saints are those that make it to Heaven or Purgatory.
[/quote]


#40

Both are called saints. The distinction between any member of the Church Triumphant and those who in particular are canonized is pretty straight forward.


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