can OSAS be defended/defeated without bible verses using logic alone?


#1

Whenever we have threads on OSAS, both sides throw bible verses at one another in an attempt to convince the other side that they are incorrect in their beliefs. Because this is an apologetic forum I can see how doing this might be good training ground for the budding apologetic, but it doesn’t really help change anyone’s mind.

I was just curious. Without using bible verses but just logic alone, can OSAS be defended?

If you had a conversation with an atheist who thought that the once saved always saved mentality was simply wrong, could you explain to him your stand and further convince him OSAS was true without using the bible. After all, he doesn’t think the bible is true.

This would be interesting for the Catholic-and Protestants who don’t believe in OSAS- side also. Is it possible to defeat OSAS without using the bible?

Hopefully, I’ll get some interesting answers on this thread and we can all be polite in our responses.:slight_smile:


#2

i am just bumping this up. I think that we have some intelligent people on both sides who could make this an interesting thread.


#3

i can help you answering atheists , i have a previous experience in convincing them :wink:


#4

Then type away.:stuck_out_tongue: I am not trying to convince anyone. I just thought this would be an interesting thread. When ever those who believe in OSAS and those who don’t start a thread, it generally involves throwing a lot of bible verses around. Each side has its stock verses to support their position.

For those who don’t know OSAS-once saved, always saved.


#5

Hi
This will be the only post I will do on this thread.
There is one verse in the Bible that absoluty proves OSAS. Let me ask these questions, do sincere Christian love God, can a person be a Christian and not love God.
Remenber when you first fell in love and over time that love grew and became stronger.
In Roman 8:28 it says “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God”,
So how can a Christian that loves God loss their salvation if God works all things for their good? If they lost their salvation God would not be working for their good.
The second part of that verse says "that are called according to His purpose"
Again if Christians are called for God’s purpose and they could loss their salvation then God would not be able to fulfill his purpose for calling them


#6

So I guess the answer to the question is…uh, no. :smiley:

In all seriousness, there is all the proof you need to refute OSAS in the person of Adam. He was not born fallen or a sinner. he knew God on a personal level I could only dream of. Yet his salvation was taken away from him by his own deeds.

[/OSAS]

God Bless


#7

I hope that you post more. I think that this could be an interesting topic.:slight_smile:

There is one verse in the Bible that absolute proves OSAS.

Quoting a bible verse would defeat the whole purpose of the thread. :stuck_out_tongue: It is difficult isn’t it? We are so used to using certain Bible verses that trying to defend/ or argue against certain core believes becomes hard without quoting those verses.

Let me ask these questions, do sincere Christian love God, can a person be a Christian and not love God.

No, I don’t see how a person can be a sincere Christian and not love God.

Remember when you first fell in love and over time that love grew and became stronger.

But if a person falls sincerely in love with someone but does nothing to help that love grow then there is the possibility that the love will die away. We see it happen in some marriages. The couple sincerely love one another. But both forget to work on the relationship, believing that love just happens. Over time they grow distant to one another.

So how can a Christian that loves God loss their salvation if God works all things for their good? If they lost their salvation God would not be working for their good.

We have freewill and have the ability to turn our back on God. Why would anyone who once knew what being a Christian was like turn their back on God. Its hard to say. I think that just like in marriages, if you take your faith for granted then it can slowly disappear.

The second part of that verse says "that are called according to His purpose"
Again if Christians are called for God’s purpose and they could loss their salvation then God would not be able to fulfill his purpose for calling them

Actually, this part is is a good argument.:slight_smile: I will have to think about that but it is late and I have to get up early to take my son to work tomorrow. So, Goodnight.


#8

This is a good argument also. :slight_smile:


#9

OSAS?

What does it stand for?

Original Sin And Suffering?


#10

OAMP

Once (you have)accepted (HIM) must persevere.


#11

Its short for Once Saved, Always Saved. Its a somewhat common doctrine amongst some churches that once you accept Jesus as your ‘personal savior’ (no real definition of what that means) you can never go to Hell for your sins.

There is some valid reasoning behind the thought process, so its not completely dismissable as a fallacy, God’s mercy is infinite, and though your sins be as scarlet the blood of Jesus will wash you white as snow.

As Fr Corapi says: If you took all the sins of the world, past present and future, they would be but a drop in the ocean of God’s infinite mercy. Praise be to God! :extrahappy:


#12

oi veh…

In the last 30 seconds I was able to come up with a non-Biblical argument for both points of view. I haven’t really read through all of this thread so I won’t share them, I’m sure they’ve come up.

This would be like the Super Bowl of apologetics.


#13

If your not going to post your argument then why post on the thread at all? That seems a bit silly and a waste of good finger movement on your keyboard.:stuck_out_tongue:

Often both sides simply point out various bible passages to each other.

But I was hoping to get some discussion on which side has the more logical arguement without the bible verses.


#14

Ok, in brief.

Pro OSAS: if you are really saved you are living as God wants you to live and you will not stray.

Anti OSAS: Christ’s sacrifice would not have been needed because the Law would have been enough.

Both are a’bit weak but you can see how the whole thing can start going around in a big circle. As for me I can say is I don’t think I would have a snowballs chance in Barstow of making it to Heaven if I didn’t have a healthy fear of Hell. As it is I could use a few intersessions.


#15

If one is running under their own human power than, Not everyone crosses the finish line in a race. But, if one is running on the power of the Holy Spirit, all of them will finish the race.

What the main difference between both positions is will everyone who accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior cross the finish line.

The free will position says, one may not finish the race, but can give up or quit the race.

The OSAS positon says, one who accepts Jesus as both their Lord and Savior will complete the race. Only those who only accept Jesus for fire insurance as savior will not cross the finish line.

Hebrews 12:2 Parallel Translations

NASB: fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (NASB ©1995)

KJV: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

DBY: looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith: who, in view of the joy lying before him, endured the cross, having despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
God.

If one is not looking at Jesus and depending on him to help them complete the race, they are not going to complete the race.

Philippians 3:12

NASB: Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. (NASB ©1995)

Philippians 2:16

NASB: holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. (NASB ©1995)

Acts 20:24

NASB: "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. (NASB ©1995)

Galatians 5:7

NASB: You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? (NASB ©1995)

1 Corinthians 9:24

NASB: Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. (NASB ©1995)

2 Timothy 4:7

NASB: I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; (NASB ©1995)

:thumbsup:


#16

Most everyone has a vague hope and trust that things will eventually turn out all right and that he will sooner or later get to heaven. Few and far between are the funeral services at which the preacher dares to suggest that the deceased may have departed in the other direction!

Nevertheless, people need to be aware that the Lord Jesus Christ clearly warned that it is easy to end up in hell.

“Enter ye in at the strait gate,” He said, “for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13, 14).

This same Lord Jesus, who spoke so often and so fervently of God’s love, and who Himself perfectly manifested the love of God, was at the same time the one who spoke more often of hell than did anyone else in the Bible. He warned, for example, that the time would come when He would have to say to many people:

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41).

The doctrine of the “remnant” is found through all Scripture. In every age there has been only a small number of people who were approved of God. In the days before the great Flood, Noah was a “preacher of righteousness” for many years, but won no converts except his own family. The Bible says that “few, that is eight souls were saved” (I Peter 3:20) and that, for the other, “God spared not the old world,… bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly” (II Peter 2:5). Jesus Christ said: “The flood came and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27).

.


#17

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

“He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . .” John 3:36

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

We don’t receive it by our works - and we don’t keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it - it would not be a free gift - and God would be a liar!

“. . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23

“. . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.” Romans 5:18

Salvation is a NEW BIRTH!
Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.

“(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)” 2 Corinthians 6:2

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

“Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” 1 Peter 1:23

You become a CHILD OF GOD!

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.

“Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . .” 1 John 3:2

“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER.” Romans 8:15

Just as nothing can “negate” your physical birth, nothing can “negate” your spiritual birth.

My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually - God becomes your Father - nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:29

Jesus will NEVER leave us!

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

“. . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee.” Hebrews 13:5

“. . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20


#18

can OSAS be defended/defeated without bible verses using logic alone?

Short answer: No.


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