Can people in heaven see people in hell?


#21

[quote="presidentjlh, post:19, topic:195011"]

Therefore, while I do greatly respect St. Thomas Aquinas and consider him to be quite brilliant, I must disagree with him. If seeing people in Hell does not bring joy to God, why would it bring joy to us?

[/quote]

I would like to see the quote in its full context.

I cannot see joy to be had, but I can see a satisfaction in justice.
And that may well have been the intended meaning.

Let's get the context.


#22

Brilliant though he was (and is), not everything the Angelic Doctor said is confirmed by the Magisterium of the Church. I don't believe those who look upon the Beatific Vision will look upon the suffering of the damned (but of course, I don't know).


#23

[quote="vz71, post:21, topic:195011"]
I would like to see the quote in its full context.

I cannot see joy to be had, but I can see a satisfaction in justice.
And that may well have been the intended meaning.

Let's get the context.

[/quote]

I still can't see the satisfaction in seeing that people willingly chose to reject God. Every aspect of it would bring me sorrow.


#24

[quote="presidentjlh, post:23, topic:195011"]
I still can't see the satisfaction in seeing that people willingly chose to reject God. Every aspect of it would bring me sorrow.

[/quote]

You are not looking at the right thing then.
There is sorrow in watching the rejection of God, but there should also be satisfaction in their receiving what they have strived for.


#25

[quote="vz71, post:24, topic:195011"]
You are not looking at the right thing then.
There is sorrow in watching the rejection of God, but there should also be satisfaction in their receiving what they have strived for.

[/quote]

Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing, but, since I am not in Heaven at the moment, by my limited view, I cannot take any satisfaction in souls burning in Hell. It fills me with sorrow.


#26

[quote="presidentjlh, post:25, topic:195011"]
Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing, but, since I am not in Heaven at the moment, by my limited view, I cannot take any satisfaction in souls burning in Hell. It fills me with sorrow.

[/quote]

That does lead to an interesting question.

Those burning in hell are in a state of eternal rejection of God.
Were God to force himself upon these souls, would it end their suffering?
How?

Would it be worse to witness God disrespect the free will of a soul and force the soul to do his bidding?
Or to witness the eternal torment of a soul rejecting God and God respecting the free will of the choice made for eternity?


#27

[quote="vz71, post:2, topic:195011"]
Does the knowledge that there are people starving to death stop you from enjoying a juicy steak?

[/quote]

I am a vegetarian, and yes it does...that's one reason why I don't eat steak. God help the person who can comfortably sit on the couch, in an air conditioned house, eating steak and drinking wine, while watching images of starving children on his 70inch plasma screen blu-ray TV.


#28

[quote="Ron_Conte, post:4, topic:195011"]
The souls in Heaven know that the souls in Hell are suffering from the just punishments of God. They might even have some knowledge of particular persons and their just punishments, such as those who harmed them in their life. But the souls in Heaven do not wish to know anything inordinately, so they do not dwell on the just punishments of Hell, but on the goodness of God and of Heaven.

[/quote]

Ron...no offense but that seems like a dodge. When you drive past a Housing Project and see the plight of the poor and their suffering, are you comforted by the thought that somehow they deserve their lot? Or that they could "get out" if only they were harder working and more industrious and well educated like yourself?

Personally my heart breaks at the sight of the impoverished. And i want to cry. Imagine the total, absolute, final, horrific, and unthinkable impoverishment of Hell. and imagine seeing a real live human being in that state. To think that you could blissfully shrug off such gut-wrenching and mind-boggling glimpse because God is so great and it is great to be here in Heaven. It strikes me as terribly cold.

That's why, like Hans Urs Von Balthasar, I am hoping that all men will be eventually saved.


#29

[quote="HereticalTheist, post:27, topic:195011"]
I am a vegetarian, and yes it does...that's one reason why I don't eat steak. God help the person who can comfortably sit on the couch, in an air conditioned house, eating steak and drinking wine, while watching images of starving children on his 70inch plasma screen blu-ray TV.

[/quote]

LOL!!!! What a bunch of hooey!!! I've had some pretty amazing vegetarian dishes that were out of this world, and I don't think the fact that the dish was missing meat had very much to do with the enjoyment level. So you mean to tell me that you eat all your meals sweltering in the heat of summer or the blasting cold of winter, on a hard cold concrete floor with no electronic connection to the world EVER?

Yeah right. :rolleyes:

~Liza


#30

[quote="HereticalTheist, post:28, topic:195011"]
To think that you could blissfully shrug off such gut-wrenching and mind-boggling glimpse because God is so great and it is great to be here in Heaven. It strikes me as terribly cold.

[/quote]

That is because we can only understand God from our very limited ability. We have no idea how we will view the suffering in hell. If we are 100% in accord with God (which of course we will be) we will know and understand His will, and know and understand that those suffering put themselves there.

And to think that all men will be saved is ludicrous. It makes a sham of all the teachings of Christ with regard to living a good and holy life to enter heaven. Why would God make a mockery of our attempts to live according to His commands by allowing those who lived the most horrible and despicable of lives to reside beside us? God is just - and justice is good even if it is not what WE would consider to be comfortable or to OUR liking.

~Liza


#31

[quote="lizaanne, post:30, topic:195011"]

And to think that all men will be saved is ludicrous.

[/quote]

He said he is hopeful that all will be saved, not that he thinks that. Pope John Paul II (if I recall correctly) said that we should hope that most are saved, and should pray and help them as best we can.

And I think that's what we are to be hopeful for, that all go to Heaven. I personally would be very happy if everyone received God's mercy. I am very hopeful that the vast majority of souls are saved.


#32

Basically , It means that the Saints are happy for following and WILLINGLY serving God while they were here on earth. The Souls in Hell FREELY CHOOSE THE ROAD TO DAMNATION..
It is a sad fact fact indeed, but YOU have a free will, I have a free will, those souls in Hell had a free will. Each choice you make whether good or bad has consequences. You will spend eternity with God knowing that they were given the chance to make amends and repent.


#33

[quote="HereticalTheist, post:27, topic:195011"]
I am a vegetarian, and yes it does...that's one reason why I don't eat steak. God help the person who can comfortably sit on the couch, in an air conditioned house, eating steak and drinking wine, while watching images of starving children on his 70inch plasma screen blu-ray TV.

[/quote]

Right, I understand that position.
But as has been rightfully pointed out, this analogy to hell does not work unless those starving do so of their free will.

So picture yourself in front of that 70 inch plasma with a big juicy (whatever it is vegetarians eat) while watching images of people surrounded by food and choosing to starve rather then eat.

I am not certain it makes for a comfortable dining experience, but I can assure you a will appreciate my steak more for it.


#34

he didnt say this.
more anticatholic internet propaganda people have sucked up. this is worse than the christian quotes attributed to gandhi and buddha online.

his major work was Summa Theologica. you wont find it there. you wont find a source for it, even though his works are online.
all you will find it sourced in is internet nonsense, some attributing it to a false cite.


#35

[quote="james678, post:34, topic:195011"]
he didnt say this.
more anticatholic internet propaganda people have sucked up. this is worse than the christian quotes attributed to gandhi and buddha online.

his major work was Summa Theologica. you wont find it there. you wont find a source for it, even though his works are online.
all you will find it sourced in is internet nonsense, some attributing it to a false cite.

[/quote]

Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!


#36

As another poster challenged the veracity of the quote, I am simply asking for citations.
If heaven is a place where you get your giggles laughing at those who suffer, I would not be able to follow your God.


#37

[quote="presidentjlh, post:31, topic:195011"]
He said he is hopeful that all will be saved, not that he thinks that. Pope John Paul II (if I recall correctly) said that we should hope that most are saved, and should pray and help them as best we can.

And I think that's what we are to be hopeful for, that all go to Heaven. I personally would be very happy if everyone received God's mercy. I am very hopeful that the vast majority of souls are saved.

[/quote]

I think , this is the perfect reply for this thread.
Afterdeath, wi'll reach the complete knowledge
of God's secrets and Gods heavens.
No more secrets, everything will be revealed.
Therefore, there won't be any secret about the
destiny of any soul whatever it would become.
And yes, I join you in the prayer that every
soul will be saved.Amen.
Nohamaria:)


#38

[quote="StrawberryJam, post:36, topic:195011"]
As another poster challenged the veracity of the quote, I am simply asking for citations.
If heaven is a place where you get your giggles laughing at those who suffer, I would not be able to follow your God.

[/quote]

BE sure it is'nt, and you will be surprised how many
friends you will find there hwo will try to help
you to become save and join them in heavens.
Our God is uncredibly perfect and merciful .
Take my 2cents and beleive it. You will never
be deceived.
Praying for you.
Nohamaria:)


#39

[quote="james678, post:34, topic:195011"]
he didnt say this.
more anticatholic internet propaganda people have sucked up. this is worse than the christian quotes attributed to gandhi and buddha online.

his major work was Summa Theologica. you wont find it there. you wont find a source for it, even though his works are online.
all you will find it sourced in is internet nonsense, some attributing it to a false cite.

[/quote]

Rather, it is in his (I believe) unfinished supplement to the Summa.

Do you consider NewAdvent a reliable enough Catholic source?

If so: newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

"I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. "

I personally find the idea abhorrent and considered it false during my Catholic days. I do not see why any Catholic would need to accept the belief as dogma--the entire canon of Aquinas is not considered infallible. A Catholic certainly need not accept this belief to be in line with their Church.

There is no getting around the fact that he said it, however.


#40

[quote="james678, post:34, topic:195011"]
he didnt say this.
more anticatholic internet propaganda people have sucked up. this is worse than the christian quotes attributed to gandhi and buddha online.

his major work was Summa Theologica. you wont find it there. you wont find a source for it, even though his works are online.
all you will find it sourced in is internet nonsense, some attributing it to a false cite.

[/quote]

Regrettably, it would appear that he did say it. It's in the Supplement to Summa Theologica, under Question 94, Article 1. The translation in the link below is slightly different from the OP:

"I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned."

Source:
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.XP_Q94_A1.html

Let the spinning begin!:)


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