Can Protestants Be Saved?


#1

This question is confrontational in nature, but I think that it is important. Actually probably the most important question I have ever asked. I would consider myself a Christian, am I? Or am I one of those people who will say "Lord Lord"and Jesus say “I never knew you”(not exact quote just off the top of my head).

This is a general question for all NON-Catholics. I posed a question recently why aren’t you protestant. Most generally the answer was that we do not have the fullness of truth. Is what truth we have enough?

I know that a recent pope has said that if protestants have not seriously thought about or heard about the catholic church that they could be saved (just a paraphrase I didn’t feel like looking this up again). Which was a kind of adjustment from Unam Sanctum.

I did not add my own beliefs because I want this to be a general not specific question.


#2

[quote="Woody87, post:1, topic:308049"]
This question is confrontational in nature, but I think that it is important. Actually probably the most important question I have ever asked. I would consider myself a Christian, am I? Or am I one of those people who will say "Lord Lord"and Jesus say "I never knew you"(not exact quote just off the top of my head).

This is a general question for all NON-Catholics. I posed a question recently why aren't you protestant. Most generally the answer was that we do not have the fullness of truth. Is what truth we have enough?

I know that a recent pope has said that if protestants have not seriously thought about or heard about the catholic church that they could be saved (just a paraphrase I didn't feel like looking this up again). Which was a kind of adjustment from Unam Sanctum.

I did not add my own beliefs because I want this to be a general not specific question.

[/quote]

I would pose this question to you. You seem open to the concept, and in fact appear to believe, that the protestant churches are incomplete, and lack the full truth. With this acceptance, why don't you look at the Catholic Church?

I believe the answer to the question you posed lies in how you answer the question of "Why am I not Catholic?"

If you reject it simply because you do not want to submit yourself to the authority of the church, then I think you may be in danger. If, however, after truly learning about the Church's teachings, you still have some issues with it, things you cannot reconcile, then I think your chances are vastly improved, but still not as good as if you were to become a devout practicing Catholic.

I know you said protestants only, but I felt this topic needs more than one side to the discussion.

Also, just a note, what the Pope said was not a change from previous dogma, it was a clarification.


#3

[quote="Woody87, post:1, topic:308049"]
This question is confrontational in nature, but I think that it is important. Actually probably the most important question I have ever asked. I would consider myself a Christian, am I? Or am I one of those people who will say "Lord Lord"and Jesus say "I never knew you"(not exact quote just off the top of my head).

This is a general question for all NON-Catholics. I posed a question recently why aren't you protestant. Most generally the answer was that we do not have the fullness of truth. Is what truth we have enough?

I know that a recent pope has said that if protestants have not seriously thought about or heard about the catholic church that they could be saved (just a paraphrase I didn't feel like looking this up again). Which was a kind of adjustment from Unam Sanctum.

I did not add my own beliefs because I want this to be a general not specific question.

[/quote]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

See Catholic Answers Tracts - Salvation Outside the Church


#4

[quote="Woody87, post:1, topic:308049"]
This question is confrontational in nature, but I think that it is important. Actually probably the most important question I have ever asked. I would consider myself a Christian, am I? Or am I one of those people who will say "Lord Lord"and Jesus say "I never knew you"(not exact quote just off the top of my head).

This is a general question for all NON-Catholics. I posed a question recently why aren't you protestant. Most

generally the answer was that we do not have the fullness of truth. Is what truth we have enough

?

I know that a recent pope has said that if protestants have not seriously thought about or heard about the catholic church that they could be saved (just a paraphrase I didn't feel like looking this up again). Which was a kind of adjustment from Unam Sanctum.

I did not add my own beliefs because I want this to be a general not specific question.

[/quote]

Hello Woody, I know you are addressing our separated brothers with this question, but I would like to comment and offer you Catholic teaching from the CCC.

CCC 838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.
Those who believe in Christ and who have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church...

Many Catholics separated from the Apostolic Church at the time of the reformation.
The Protestants of today cannot be held culpable for the disobedience of their forefathers.
In the end all judging will be left to Gods call:)
May I suggest that to know what the teaching authority of the Catholic Church teaches,best idea is to pick up a copy of the CCC at any local book store, a copy is very reasonably priced. Also Catholic Answers here is an excellent resource.
God Bless and Peace to you Woody! Carlan


#5

We have Jesus…and He is Enough…“for I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have committed to him against that day”

He is the Keeper…He is the Savior…of course Protestants can be saved…that’s why Jesus came…to save sinners.


#6

[quote="Publisher, post:5, topic:308049"]
We have Jesus....and He is Enough...."for I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have committed to him against that day"

He is the Keeper.....He is the Savior.....of course Protestants can be saved....that's why Jesus came....to save sinners.

[/quote]

Hey Publisher. Jesus said, "I will build my church." Scripture tells us that "Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

Everyone must determine which church in the world today, continues to be Jesus' church, and once he/she makes that decision, should he/she strive to belong to Jesus' church, in your opinion?

Didn't Jesus give authority, in terms of settling disputes, to His church? Mt 18:17, "But if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be as a heathen and the publican."


#7

If you believe in what Jesus Christ did on the cross, and in His resurrection, then you are saved. That’s the easy part. The harder part comes in living the Christian life. It’s not an easy road. Non-believers will say all kinds of nasty things about you. Other groups (like Mormons or Jehovah’s Witness) will want to pile on unessasary things on top of Salvation. Keep firm in the belief that you have, and all will be well.:D:thumbsup:


#8

[quote="batman1973, post:7, topic:308049"]
If you believe in what Jesus Christ did on the cross, and in His resurrection, then you are saved. That's the easy part. The harder part comes in living the Christian life. It's not an easy road. Non-believers will say all kinds of nasty things about you. Other groups (like Mormons or Jehovah's Witness) will want to pile on unessasary things on top of Salvation. Keep firm in the belief that you have, and all will be well.:D:thumbsup:

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#9

It is a dogma of the faith (ie a truth revealed by God), that there is no salvation outside the Church. Unam Sanctam teaches this truth, with relation to which is the right Church--it is the one subject to the Roman Pontiff (ie since no one can be saved without belonging to the Church, and the Church is subject to the Roman Pontiff, no one can be saved without being subject to the Roman Pontiff). No pope can or has revised this.

So, how can Protestants be saved? First, like anyone else, they can repent and convert to the Catholic faith and become a member of the Church, and persevere in grace through faith and charity.

The Church also acknowledges that it is possible in some circumstances for people to belong to the Church, without being an explicit member. Protestants, for the most part, already have taken two important steps: they have been baptized and they believe in the Redeemer and the One who sent Him. For them, what potentially separates them from the Church (which as His Body, receives life from Christ the Head,) is heresy, which is a sin against the unity of faith.

For heresy to separate one from the supernatural life of the Church, it must be culpable--it must be through some fault like malice, pride, etc. or a negligent disregard for the truth, etc. If one is doing his due diligence seeking the truth and is prepared to follow the truth wherever it leads, then such a person would not separated himself through heresy. St. Augustine explained this early on:

For a more in depth read on when a person may or may not be culpable, I recommend this work by Cardinal Manning, an important bishop in England in the 1800s. Read from the paragraph at the bottom of page 16 through the paragraph ending at the top of page 25.

books.google.com/books?pg=PA19&id=-d5EAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note, he speaks mostly about Anglicans, but briefly explains how the same principles can apply to all Protestant groups (which he calls "Dissenters").

Also, it should be noted, that even those who receive life from the Body of Christ in extraordinary ways, they must still persevere in grace. If they refuse to repent of a mortal sin they will not be saved, just like a Catholic who does the same.


#10

The Catholic Church also teaches the following:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."


#11

Yep!

I would consider myself a Christian, am I?

Yep!

Or am I one of those people who will say "Lord Lord"and Jesus say “I never knew you”(not exact quote just off the top of my head).

I doubt it. You don’t sound like you’re using faith as bits of pious flare.

Most generally the answer was that we do not have the fullness of truth. **Is what truth we have enough? **

Do you really want to just do the “bare minimum” ?

I know that a recent pope has said that if protestants have not seriously thought about or heard about the catholic church that they could be saved (just a paraphrase I didn’t feel like looking this up again). Which was a kind of adjustment from Unam Sanctum.

I didn’t let that quote bother me as a Baptist and I don’t let it bother me as a Catholic. We’re brothers in Christ through Baptism. God will re-unite us either on Earth or in Heaven when he is ready. Until then we should pray for unity and try to spread the message to as many NON-believers as possible. We can fish from each others’ ponds later.


#12

Regarding who is a Christian, others have mentioned that any baptized person can call themselves one. I have read Saints who have interpreted the verses in Revelation describing the name of Jesus written on the foreheads of those in Heaven as symbolizing the indelible mark of Baptism.


#13

[quote="Polycarp1, post:3, topic:308049"]
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

See Catholic Answers Tracts - Salvation Outside the Church

[/quote]

Several priest I work with told me you do not have to believe in the Catholic church to be saved, but rather in Jesus as your savior. Of course some priest in the upper hierarchy will tell you other wise because the do not want people to leave the church. We all like to believe that the Church is infallible but it is not. The Pope and the Bishops are inspired by God and The Holy Spirit but that doesn't mean they get everything right every time. Only God is infallible and only He knows who will be saved.


#14

:eek:

Your moniker says you are Catholic. :confused:

The Church is infallible. That is dogma which no Catholic should deny.

Infallible means ‘to teach no error’, which is the Church role, it teaches Doctrine. Jesus gave it the authority to formulate and teach Doctrine. Every single Doctrine declared by the Councils and Magisterium of Bishops including the Pope, they are indeed right every time. Can you give me an example of a Doctrine that is ‘not right’?

I don’t know any Priest who denies that Jesus is our Saviour. Care to name any names? I’m just wondering who that priest in the upper hierarchy is? The one you say is scheming to keep souls.


#15

The short answer to the topic title of the thread is Yes. God chooses to save whoever he pleases.


#16

[quote="LEMAITRE, post:14, topic:308049"]
:eek:

Your moniker says you are Catholic. :confused:

The Church is infallible. That is dogma which no Catholic should deny.

Infallible means 'to teach no error', which is the Church role, it teaches Doctrine. Jesus gave it the authority to formulate and teach Doctrine. Every single Doctrine declared by the Councils and Magisterium of Bishops including the Pope, they are indeed right every time. Can you give me an example of a Doctrine that is 'not right'?

I don't know any Priest who denies that Jesus is our Saviour. Care to name any names? I'm just wondering who that priest in the upper hierarchy is? The one you say is scheming to keep souls.

[/quote]

I did not say that any priest denied that Jesus is our Savior, but rather that people that are not apart of the Catholic church can be saved. Please make note of that.

We will not know if ALL Doctrine is true until the second coming or after we die.

What about the popes who were corrupt in the past, were they right every time? If we are to believe that we would be considered a "cult". Again ONLY God knows all the answers.


#17

einna;10129940]I did not say that any priest denied that Jesus is our Savior, but rather that people that are not apart of the Catholic church can be saved. Please make note of that.

:thumbsup:

We will not know if ALL Doctrine is true until the second coming or after we die.

Does that include the holy bible e.g. "We will not know if ALL Doctrine (found in the bible) is true until the second coming or after we die."

What about the popes who were corrupt in the past, were they right every time?

Like the authors of the holy bible, a pope is not right simply because he is the bishop of Rome and the vicar of Christ, as per catholic belief. He is a fallible man just as the apostles were. We give all the credit, in terms of doctrinal truth, to God. Peter and Paul were sinners, and yet they still taught and wrote infallibly. As a former protestant I had no idea what was considered truth and what was not e.g. the Mass is a sacrifice or the Eucharist is merely symbolic. No one in the protestant sphere can answer that question for me; can you?


#18

[quote="joe370, post:17, topic:308049"]
:thumbsup:
Does that include the holy bible e.g. "We will not know if ALL Doctrine (found in the bible) is true until the second coming or after we die."

Like the authors of the holy bible, a pope is not right simply because he is the bishop of Rome and the vicar of Christ, as per catholic belief. He is a fallible man just as the apostles were. We give all the credit, in terms of doctrinal truth, to God. Peter and Paul were sinners, and yet they still taught and wrote infallibly. As a former protestant I had no idea what was considered truth and what was not e.g. the Mass is a sacrifice or the Eucharist is merely symbolic. No one in the protestant sphere can answer that question for me; can you?

[/quote]

Seeing that the writers of the Bible were men who were inspired by God but not perfect and that there are contradictions in the Bible, I believe that their are inaccuracies in the Bible, but that the main vast majority is The Truth.


#19

[quote="einna, post:18, topic:308049"]
Seeing that the writers of the Bible were men who were inspired by God but not perfect and that there are contradictions in the Bible, I believe that their are inaccuracies in the Bible, but that the main vast majority is The Truth.

[/quote]

Hey Einna. Do you have faith that the holy spirit continues to guide and preserve doctrinal truth within Jesus' church, be it the catholic church, one of the eastern orthodox churches or one of the protestant churches? Or, did that end after the apostolic age? In other words, is there a way for you and I to know, definitively, the truth regarding the Eucharist e.g. real presence or a mere symbol?


#20

=LEMAITRE;10129873]The short answer to the topic title of the thread is Yes. God chooses to save whoever he pleases.

no, actually not.:rolleyes:

This would God imperfect and judgmental. He can't be either and still be our Good and perfect God.

Only man has what is needed to rationalize, love and hate. This requires a mind, intellect, FREEWILL which are all permnantly attached to our Souls.

Each of these "things" is a Spiritual reality" as is God. And Like God these "things are imortal and cannot die or be killed.

Because God grants man ALONE this package which emulates Him; God OBLIGATES Himself to [he MUST] permit man to exercise these gifts and choose heaven or hell by ourselves. Yes Grace Offered is a huge factor.

Here's the PROOF:
Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21: **“every one who is called by my name, whom **I created for my glory, **whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself **that they might declare my praise.”

Divine Justice demands that it be OUR choice.

That said: Back to the OPQ

Certainly everyone "can" be saved CONDITIONALLY.:thumbsup:

Perhaps a more precise question might be: can anyone be saved in any manner not precisely and specifically designed; commanded and demanded by God Himself.

Becaue "All salvation MUSt and most certainly flow through the CC" we teach that only when it is through no self desired fault; our choice competing with Christ] may one who does not KNOW of the required process [always a process] MAY one conditionally hope to be saved if not accociated with Christ one God; Faith and Church.

CCC 754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.

*816 *"The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

There' more but, space is limited:o

God Bless,
pat/PJM


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