Can Protestants go to Heaven


#1

I live in central IL and on a local talk radio station here there is this one hour ‘Ask the Pastor’ program that is run by this Protestant Pastor. I was kind of enjoying his little saturday 11 to 12 program but then he decided to tell the world his understanding of what Catholics believed about Protestants going to heaven! He said he researched it on the internet by google-ing it:) Catholics don’t believe that only catholics will go to Heaven! That would be stupid!


Basically, he said: catholics don’t read the bible and he provided some references that he claimed proved that catholics don’t believe that Protestants can go to Heaven. He apologized all over but felt he had to inform us of what we believed. He even found a pope who once believed this too.


I felt he was so [font=Arial]prejudicial. Felt like he pulled out information like “all Germans hate Jews” which was true for only ‘some’ Germans and equally important was ‘back’ in time at one point in history.[/font]
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[font=Arial]I felt the big part this Pastor missed was Vatican II.[/font]
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[font=Arial]But I would like to know more about ‘how’ to answer this assertion.[/font]
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[font=Arial]Thank you[/font]


#2

If you look at the ouncil of Florence in the 8th session it talks about baptism. Here is what it says

Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. But we do not deny that true baptism is conferred by the following words: May this servant of Christ be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit; or, This person is baptized by my hands in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. Since the holy Trinity is the principle cause from which baptism has its power and the minister is the instrumental cause who exteriorly bestows the sacrament, the sacrament is conferred if the action is performed by the minister with the invocation of the holy Trinity. The minister of this sacrament is a priest, who is empowered to baptize in virtue of his office. But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.

As you can see you do not have to be baptized by a Catholic Priest in order to be part of the church. A pagan can even do the bapism as long as they do it correctly. The only thing that is needed for it to be correct is to be baptized in the words that are highlighted above or something that is with the same meaning. This makes them part of the universal church.
If you look at the Catechism you can see that it also agrees that all baptized are connected to the church.

855 The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358


#3

Furthermore, if you look at the Catechism you can see that someone who is not baptized but desires to have the truth and lives according to Gods will as he knows it can be saved.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

The fact that an unbaptized person can be saved is a proof that also the protestants can be saved.


#4

Not Protestants who mislead their flocks and die unrepentent.

Jesus said something about it being better to have a millstone around one’s neck and being thrown off a cliff than to spread scandal to His flock… guess what Mr. radio personality just did.

God bless and Mary protect,

Mikey


#5

**Did I say anything about baptism? **

This only had to do with if you were Catholic or Protestant; this minister was saying that we Catholics believe that “only” catholics can go to heave because we’re Catholic and because Protestants are not, they won’t and CAN’T go to heaven.

Hope this helps.


#6

[quote=smokey888]**Did I say anything about baptism? **

This only had to do with if you were Catholic or Protestant; this minister was saying that we Catholics believe that “only” catholics can go to heave because we’re Catholic and because Protestants are not, they won’t and CAN’T go to heaven.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

I have two points with my post.

The first one is that the Catholic church accepts the baptisms of the Protestants as good. The baptism is what makes you part of the Church. By this point I am assuming that the guy you were talking about was going by the no salvation outside the church idea.

The second point is, the Catholic church believes that anyone can be saved if he lives a life to Gods will as he knows it. Even someone in africa who has never heard of God. So by this point you can clearly see that Catholics do not believe that all protestants are going to Hell. They believe that any protestant who lives his life according to Gods will as they know it will be saved.


#7

[quote=MichaelFilo]Not Protestants who mislead their flocks and die unrepentent.

Jesus said something about it being better to have a millstone around one’s neck and being thrown off a cliff than to spread scandal to His flock… guess what Mr. radio personality just did.

God bless and Mary protect,

Mikey
[/quote]

Jesus said that talking about corrupting little children. He did not say heresy. There is a big difference.

If you deliberately teach heresy you will go to Hell but not if that is truely what you believe. I am going by church teachings here. This is not my own teaching.


#8

Dear Smokey;

The protestant radio minister raised an objection to the Catholic Church that is common. The Church has made statements to the effect that “there is no salvation outside the Church.” But the teaching is not meant to imply that only those who are practicing members of the Roman Catholic Church will go to Heaven.

Instead, and I am summarizing for brevity, the Church teaches that those who are validly baptised are in fact united to the one holy catholic and apostolic Church - although imperfectly united - and, therefore, their salvation does not come from “outside” of the Church. Most protestant baptisms are considered valid in form.

The Catholic Answers website has a more detailed discussion of this common anti-catholic argument. :slight_smile:


#9

** The Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (often abbreviated EENS), literally meaning "outside the church there is no salvation . **

Interpretations (in order of decreasing strictness)

[list]
*]Full membership within the Roman Catholic church before death is necessary for salvation.
*]One must be baptised before judgment to be considered for Heaven.
[list]
*]The above interpretations imply that all non-Catholics go to [/font]Hell, as do all Catholics who deny that all non-Catholics go to Hell, because denying that all non-Catholics went to Hell would be [/font]heretical.
[/list]
[/list]***The debate often calls on these allegedly infallible but admittedly clear and insistent statements by these popes: ***

  • There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

  • We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (, 1302.Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)

  • The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull* Cantate Domino*, 1441.)

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)


#10

Gosh, if by “Protestant” you mean “everyone baptized in a Protestant communion,” then I would say that yes, Protestants can be saved. Those little babies who are baptized in a Protestant church but have no connection by conviction to Protestant heresies are part of Christ’s mystical body, the Church, and can be saved. Those who are Protestant by conviction, however, are necessarily lost so long as they persist in their heresy.

We do not say this because we hate Protestants. Far from it. The Church is compelled to preach the truth in order that all (including Protestants) might know it, and part of the truth is that one must be part of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. This has been confirmed too many times by popes, councils, doctors, fathers, saints and canonists for there to be any doubt on the point.


#11

The above (message # 9) was from some of his (this Pastor) research, then someone here told me to look at “Salvation” on this site and then “Salvation Outside the Chuch” … I did and now I’m really confussed because … it doesn’t look to good, it sounds a bit egotistical, here’s a part of it from this site. You tell me if it doesn’t sound like ‘only Catholics can go to Heaven’:

Everything below is from this site “Salvation Outside the Church”.
I have applied bold to some and underlined some for emphasis:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to and that salvation can be attained through any of them. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible [my remarks: doesn’t sound hopeful tho, does it] in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament Church.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

[sounds like to me you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven -]

Ignatius of Antioch

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (*Letter to the Philadelphians **3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

-----this is a far as I copied --------------------

Sounds to me like we’re saying you have to the big ole C or off to merry land you go? Anyone dissagree, if so, show me some BEEF! thank you (ps: I don’t like this by the way, I don’t like this attitude at all!)*


#12

I’m a Protestant. Jesus tells me in the bible that" whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life".John 3:16.
Therefore, I, as a protestant,will go to heaven!
God bless you,
Andrew Smith


#13

[quote=Sanning]I’m a Protestant. Jesus tells me in the bible that" whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life".John 3:16.
Therefore, I, as a protestant,will go to heaven!
God bless you,
Andrew Smith
[/quote]

There is more to salvation than believing, you also must live the faith. But the church never says all protestants are going to Hell.


#14

Jimmy,what do you mean by saying “there is more to salvation than believing”?


#15

OK, WE’VE DONE AWAY WITH HEAVEN FOR PROTESTANTS AND WE’VE DONE AWAY WITH HELL AND WE DON’T BELIEVE IN PURGATORY ANYMORE … SO aaaaaaaaa,


ANYONE GOT ANY IDEAS WHAT THE H*LL WE DO WITH THIS MESS?


WE GOT PEOPLE FALLEN OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH EVERYDAY MAN, WHERE THEY GO’N?


WE GOTTA-BIG PROBLEM HERE!


#16

The problem is easily solved. Just put your Faith in Jesus Christ, and not in anything, or anyone else!God Bless!


#17

Faith isn’t the question here. Faith is doing fine, or it was at the start of this day – maybe it is a little shaken.

I’m a catholic and it looks like my organized faith is saying it is normatively preferred for one to be catholic to go to heaven.

That’s pretty sad.


#18

[quote=smokey888]The above (message # 9) was from some of his (this Pastor) research, then someone here told me to look at “Salvation” on this site and then “Salvation Outside the Chuch” … I did and now I’m really confussed because … it doesn’t look to good, it sounds a bit egotistical, here’s a part of it from this site. You tell me if it doesn’t sound like ‘only Catholics can go to Heaven’:

Everything below is from this site “Salvation Outside the Church”.
I have applied bold to some and underlined some for emphasis:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to and that salvation can be attained through any of them. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible [my remarks: doesn’t sound hopeful tho, does it] in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament Church.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

[sounds like to me you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven -]

QUOTE]

This is one of those areas where those disdainful of everything post Vat II try to damn everyone outside of the visible Catholic Church.

The Cathecism is quite clear this is not the case and it annoys me when some Catholics try to present this as an official position. It’s not.:nope:

See in particular CCC 817, 818, 819, 821, 838, 843,846, 847,848

‘normatively necessary’ should not be seen as an implication of any sort of majority. If you add up those who never heard the gospel at all, those who heard an imperfect version of the gospel, non-catholics who were taught falsehoods about the Catholic Church together they would heavily outnumber Catholic Christians!

The CCC is ‘a sure norm for the teaching of the faith’ according to the current pope and was approved by the majority of the episcopate by consultation.

Listen to it & the Church and not disgruntled so called ‘traditionalist’ Catholics.
[/quote]


#19

Hey, there’s hope - JGC:

What is CCC? Where (URL) can I find those numbers?

My references were from this site, I thought this site was pretty good – then why does this site have the infor I posted and not your info?

thanks for your input


#20

[quote=smokey888]Hey, there’s hope - JGC:

What is CCC? Where (URL) can I find those numbers?

My references were from this site, I thought this site was pretty good – then why does this site have the infor I posted and not your info?

thanks for your input
[/quote]

The Cathecism of the Catholic Church. Well worth reading the Apostolic Constitution for background to the CCC.

The CCC is on a few websites including

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html


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