Can some one help me with this?


#1

Was Mary born of a woman? Yes. Even if you believe the Immaculate Conception.

Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist

And, in keeping with that, what does John the Baptist himself say on the matter?

John 3:30 “He (Christ) must become greater; I (Johns) must become less.”

So John the Baptist, the “Greatest” of all of us humans, feels he merits no praise.

What else does Christ say on the matter? (Luke 11: 27-28 )

**As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, "Blessed rather** are those who hear the word of God and obey it."



#2

might be as great, says “no one greater”… of course i don’t think this was a comparison between his mama and the baptist…


#3

I thought they were two different Johns…


#4

Jesus was “born of woman.” I’d say he was above John the Baptist. Context, context, context…Also, Mary was blessed not for being the mother of Jesus per se, but because she kept the word better than anyone ever.

Also, Mary herself in Luke 1 says that all generations will call her blessed.

This guy is using the pick and choose verse technique.


#5

How about this:

Everyone who wants to honor Jesus’ Mother, will continue to do so. And everyone who wants to continue finding reasons to depict her as rather insignificant, will continue to do so. And when we pass away–it will all be sorted out.


#6

[quote=Valtiel] Was Mary born of a woman? Yes. Even if you believe the Immaculate Conception.

Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist

And, in keeping with that, what does John the Baptist himself say on the matter?

John 3:30 “He (Christ) must become greater; I (Johns) must become less.”

So John the Baptist, the “Greatest” of all of us humans, feels he merits no praise.

What else does Christ say on the matter? (Luke 11: 27-28 )

**As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, "Blessed rather** are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
[/quote]

Valtiel,

I’d be delighted to help you with this, but I don’t see the problem. Is it a question of what constitutes greatness? I might note that the next thing Jesus said in Matthew 11:11 is that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

Is the problem about John the Baptist? We know that he made at least one mistake; he denied that he was Elijah (John 1:21) while Jesus clearly identified him as Elijah (Matthew 17:13). In the verse you give, he is reflecting in front of his disciples about the relative roles of his ministry and Jesus’ ministry. There is nothing in John 3:30 about John the Baptist’s position in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is the problem about Mary? We venerate her, as someone already answered you, not because she was Jesus’ mother but because she was His most perfect disciple. She did indeed “hear the word of God and obey it,” and she is blessed for it.

  • Liberian

#7

The context of “None greater than John the Baptist” is that of prophets.

Jesus was not saying that Mary was unblessed, just that having holy relatives doesn’t make you holy.


#8

[quote=Mickey]How about this:

Everyone who wants to honor Jesus’ Mother, will continue to do so. And everyone who wants to continue finding reasons to depict her as rather insignificant, will continue to do so. And when we pass away–it will all be sorted out.
[/quote]

Let me clarify something from the “Protestant”. We believe the Bible when it records that she will be called blessed. We also believe the Bible when it records that Joseph did not know her(normal sexual marriage relations) until after she bore Jesus. We also plainly believe the Bible when it speaks of the brothers and sisters(not cousins that words is used elsewhere) of Jesus.

When someone accuses us(non-Catholics) of picking and choosing verses to build a case for something, it is quite myopic on the part of the Catholic accuser. That being said the Bible never instructs to pray to Mary, and even if it did it does not justify 50 prayers to Mary to 1 prayer to God. Can Mary and the Saints hear prayers? I for one can’t hear two conversations, but it is assumed they can hear many thousands, possibly millions of prayers(1.1 Billion Catholics would overwhelm the mother of Jesus in heaven if she could hear them). Only God has that ability, only he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. There is nothing wrong with holding out Mary as an example of virtue and obedience. She should be, as the other women in the Word of God. The Catholic Mary, especially over in Europe, is nothing like the Mary of the Bible. They are not the same. Mary cannot hear prayers, cannot give grace, she is not sinless she said herself that God is her savior. You don’t need a Savior if your sinless, you also don’t have to make a sin offering to a priest…

Luke 2
22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

The Bible says that ALL have sinned, and gives no but in the verse. We know that Jesus was sinless because of other verses, but no verse is written so that we may know Mary was sinless. I would implore you that have been raised with another Mary to search the Scriptures to see if I speak truth or error.


#9

[quote=Mickey]How about this:

Everyone who wants to honor Jesus’ Mother, will continue to do so. And everyone who wants to continue finding reasons to depict her as rather insignificant, will continue to do so. And when we pass away–it will all be sorted out.
[/quote]

Let me clarify something from the Protestant circle, if you will. We believe the Bible when it records that she will be called blessed. We also believe the Bible when it records that Joseph did not know her(normal sexual marriage relations) until after she bore Jesus. We also plainly believe the Bible when it speaks of the brothers and sisters(not cousins that words is used elsewhere) of Jesus.

When someone accuses us(non-Catholics) of picking and choosing verses to build a case for something, it is quite myopic on the part of the Catholic accuser. That being said the Bible never instructs to pray to Mary, and even if it did it does not justify 50 prayers to Mary to 1 prayer to God. Can Mary and the Saints hear prayers? I for one can’t hear two conversations, but it is assumed they can hear many thousands, possibly millions of prayers(1.1 Billion Catholics would overwhelm the mother of Jesus in heaven if she could hear them). Only God has that ability, only he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. There is nothing wrong with holding out Mary as an example of virtue and obedience. She should be, as the other women in the Word of God. The Catholic Mary, especially over in Europe, is nothing like the Mary of the Bible. They are not the same. Mary cannot hear prayers, cannot give grace, she is not sinless she said herself that God is her savior. You don’t need a Savior if your sinless, you also don’t have to make a sin offering to a priest…

Luke 2
22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

The Bible says that ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and gives no but in the verse. We know that Jesus was sinless because of other verses, but no verse is written so that we may know Mary was sinless. For Mary to be sinless from birth she would have to be equal with God. I would implore you that have been taught about “another” Mary, mother of Jesus, to search the Scriptures to see if I speak truth or error.


#10

Hi please check out,ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm Hope this helps!


#11

[quote=199]Hi please check out,ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm Hope this helps!
[/quote]

199,

These are not Scripture. They are papal edicts and such, the earliest one in 1883. Did you look to the Scripture to see if I am speaking truth or lying? Where does the Bible back up what has been written on this web page?

In Christ


#12

1: Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and her and Joseph did not have relations…even after Jesus’ birth.

2: Jesus did not have brothers and sisters…all that believe in and keep the word of The Father are his brothers and sisters…I can only imagine what your opinion of THe DaVinci Code is :rolleyes:

3: The Catholic Church doesn’t instruct to pray TO Mary or the Saints…we are in fact praying for their intercession on our behalf, and if you understood anything about prayer, you would realize that ALL prayer, no matter if you are praying for the intercession of St. Jude our our Blessed Virgin is prayer directed to God our Father…We do not equate the Saints or the BVM with God, nor do we believe they have the ability to answer our prayers as only God can do…but we do believe that great favor rest upon them in God’s eyes, therefore we pray for their intercession on our behalf, hoping their favor with God will help our cause…let me ask you this, what is the difference between praying The Hail Mary and asking your brother or mother to pray for you since you have a very hard test tomorrow in school…or an ill friend you want to recover.

4: Yeah Europe…that is the standard bearer for morality, Christianity, and orthodoxy…don’t get me wrong, America is not too far behind them.

5: You do not have to be God to be sinless…we are all created in his image and are all capable of being sinless…we just choose not to. Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin and remained sinless throughout her life…she is the New Ark of The Covenant…the chosen one to carry our Lord…The Incarnation when the Word was made Flesh…God would not have had his son born of a women guilty of sin…That is why Mary was conceived without Original Sin and remained sinless…but this is where you protestants get hung up (I used to be a protestant, so I know)…not all of this is scriptural…part of these teachings are Tradition and promulgated by Infallible statements from our Pope…You all rely on Sola Scripture, believing that if it isn’t explicitly written in the Bible, then it isn’t possible…well then, I guess you wouldn’t have been a Christian during the beginning of The Church, considering it was ALL “Oral Tradition” for several years until the Gospels and other books were written and the Canon was established…A Protestants’ thinking is confined within a small box and you are unable to see the bigger picture and the reality of things…but that is because it is a lot easier to see things 1 dimensional, instead of multi-dimensional as we see things. It is easy to say Faith alone, instead of Faith and Works…it is easy to say once saved always saved, as opposed to being a work in progress…I left the Baptist because I always thought of myself as being a lazy Christian, because there was only one thing I had to do to make it to heaven, and that was to have faith in Christ and accept him as my personal saviour…How childish is that?

[quote=truthinlove]Let me clarify something from the Protestant circle, if you will. We believe the Bible when it records that she will be called blessed. We also believe the Bible when it records that Joseph did not know her(normal sexual marriage relations) until after she bore Jesus. We also plainly believe the Bible when it speaks of the brothers and sisters(not cousins that words is used elsewhere) of Jesus.

When someone accuses us(non-Catholics) of picking and choosing verses to build a case for something, it is quite myopic on the part of the Catholic accuser. That being said the Bible never instructs to pray to Mary, and even if it did it does not justify 50 prayers to Mary to 1 prayer to God. Can Mary and the Saints hear prayers? I for one can’t hear two conversations, but it is assumed they can hear many thousands, possibly millions of prayers(1.1 Billion Catholics would overwhelm the mother of Jesus in heaven if she could hear them). Only God has that ability, only he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. There is nothing wrong with holding out Mary as an example of virtue and obedience. She should be, as the other women in the Word of God. The Catholic Mary, especially over in Europe, is nothing like the Mary of the Bible. They are not the same. Mary cannot hear prayers, cannot give grace, she is not sinless she said herself that God is her savior. You don’t need a Savior if your sinless, you also don’t have to make a sin offering to a priest.
[/quote]


#13

<< He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” >>

Also compare other translations, some have “even more” instead of “rather”

For example, New King James Version:

Luke 11: 27-28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

So the meaning would be, Yes Mary is blessed, but even more than this are those who hear the word of God and obey it, as my mother did supremely.

Phil P


#14

Hello Valtiel;

I already responded this “proof” text challenge posted by ScottH on the “talking truth” website. My screen name there is “Deus Vult” You can check it out and let me know what you think. Here’s the link:

talkingtruth.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=748&highlight=#748


#15

[quote=truthinlove]Let me clarify something from the Protestant circle, if you will. We believe the Bible when it records that she will be called blessed. We also believe the Bible when it records that Joseph did not know her(normal sexual marriage relations) until after she bore Jesus. We also plainly believe the Bible when it speaks of the brothers and sisters(not cousins that words is used elsewhere) of Jesus.

When someone accuses us(non-Catholics) of picking and choosing verses to build a case for something, it is quite myopic on the part of the Catholic accuser. That being said the Bible never instructs to pray to Mary, and even if it did it does not justify 50 prayers to Mary to 1 prayer to God. Can Mary and the Saints hear prayers? I for one can’t hear two conversations, but it is assumed they can hear many thousands, possibly millions of prayers(1.1 Billion Catholics would overwhelm the mother of Jesus in heaven if she could hear them). Only God has that ability, only he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. There is nothing wrong with holding out Mary as an example of virtue and obedience. She should be, as the other women in the Word of God. The Catholic Mary, especially over in Europe, is nothing like the Mary of the Bible. They are not the same. Mary cannot hear prayers, cannot give grace, she is not sinless she said herself that God is her savior. You don’t need a Savior if your sinless, you also don’t have to make a sin offering to a priest…

Luke 2
22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

The Bible says that ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and gives no but in the verse. We know that Jesus was sinless because of other verses, but no verse is written so that we may know Mary was sinless. For Mary to be sinless from birth she would have to be equal with God. I would implore you that have been taught about “another” Mary, mother of Jesus, to search the Scriptures to see if I speak truth or error.
[/quote]

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly” John 7:24

Can mankind ever judge “justly”? Has Jesus’ Mother been judged justly by man?

It seems, for Catholics, Mary was “pre-justified” by her Son; saved before her birth. Born similar to Adam and Eve, without original sin. I don’t believe scripture actually states she was born of original sin.

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]“But we know where He is from. When the Messiah comes, no one will know where He is from.” John 7:27[/size][/font]

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]There is profound mystery in the birth of Christ.[/size][/font]

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]Why do non-Catholic Christians want to argue this point? What difference does it make to anyone what we believe? Isn’t that all vanity?[/size][/font]

If a million people asked me to pray for them, I would. In fact I do, even though few ask. I pray for all of mankind, yesterday, today and tomorrow, that we will accept God’s grace to return to Him, in time and eternity, all that He desires us to be.


#16

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