Can someone help me with this passage!


#1

First of all baptism is definitely a “symbolic act” John the Baptist states:

John 1:25-26 States : And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither a prophet? 26- John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standees one among you, whom ye know not; JESUS ALONE CAN BAPTIZE AND JESUS IS NOT HERE SO IT IS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION. BAPTISM IS JUST A PICTURE OF WHAT THE SOUL OF THE PERSON IS PUT THROUGH CHRIST’S DEATH , BURIAL , AND RESURRECTION. WHEN A PERSON GET’S SAVED HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD WITH CHRIST, BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RISEN WITH CHRIST. IF A SAVED PERSON NEVER GETS BAPTIZED HE STILL GOES TO HEAVEN.

Romans can explain Rom.6:3-4

3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptize into his death? how can we be baptized if Jesus is not, how can we be baptized with Jesus? because is is a symbol of salivation through faith.

4- Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


#2

[quote=BOBKAT]First of all baptism is definitely a “symbolic act” John the Baptist states:

John 1:25-26 States : And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither a prophet? 26- John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standees one among you, whom ye know not; JESUS ALONE CAN BAPTIZE AND JESUS IS NOT HERE SO IT IS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION. BAPTISM IS JUST A PICTURE OF WHAT THE SOUL OF THE PERSON IS PUT THROUGH CHRIST’S DEATH , BURIAL , AND RESURRECTION. WHEN A PERSON GET’S SAVED HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD WITH CHRIST, BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RISEN WITH CHRIST. IF A SAVED PERSON NEVER GETS BAPTIZED HE STILL GOES TO HEAVEN.

Romans can explain Rom.6:3-4

3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptize into his death? how can we be baptized if Jesus is not, how can we be baptized with Jesus? because is is a symbol of salivation through faith.

4- Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[/quote]

Baptism is certainly a symbolic act, although it would be more precise to call it a “sign”, however, it is not ONLY a symbolic act (or sign). Baptism is a Sacrament, and as such is an Effective Sign; that is, a sign that actually brings about the effect that it signifies (or symbolizes.)

In this particular case, Baptism signifies a cleansing from all sin, both original sin and any other pre-baptismal sins the person may have commited, an infusion of Sanctifying Grace, new supernatural life in Jesus Christ, initiation into membership in the Church, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Sacrament of Baptism, being an effective sign, actually causes all these effects to come into being.

I hope this answered your question.


#3

Do not fall into the trap of “either/or” thinking. Baptism is a sign, yes, but as Joseph Bilodeau put it (very well, I might add), it effects (brings about the effect–not “affects”) what it signifies.

This is also the case with the Eucharist.


#4

[quote=BOBKAT] JESUS ALONE CAN BAPTIZE AND JESUS IS NOT HERE
[/quote]

I am truly so sorry you are not a Christian. Every Christian knows that Jesus is indeed “here” He will never leave us. He is physically present every second of every day in the Eucharist. He is present in His Church, He is present when we gather in His name. I ask you to embrace Jesus He is indeed here.


#5

[quote=BOBKAT] WHEN A PERSON GET’S SAVED HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD WITH CHRIST, BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RISEN WITH CHRIST. IF A SAVED PERSON NEVER GETS BAPTIZED HE STILL GOES TO HEAVEN.
[/quote]

A person is not “saved” until he is judged and accepted into heaven. Your salvation is not an event, it is a process, and Baptism is definitely a part of that process.


#6

[quote=BOBKAT] First of all baptism is definitely a “symbolic act” John the Baptist states:
John 1:25-26 States : And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither a prophet? 26- John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standees one among you, whom ye know not; one of these views (and I’m not referring to the Scriptural quotes) is incorrect

Acts 19,2 And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John’s baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

[/quote]


#7

First of all baptism is definitely a “symbolic act” John the Baptist states:

John 1:25-26 States : And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither a prophet? 26- John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standees one among you, whom ye know not; JESUS ALONE CAN BAPTIZE AND JESUS IS NOT HERE SO IT IS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION. BAPTISM IS JUST A PICTURE OF WHAT THE SOUL OF THE PERSON IS PUT THROUGH CHRIST’S DEATH , BURIAL , AND RESURRECTION. WHEN A PERSON GET’S SAVED HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD WITH CHRIST, BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RISEN WITH CHRIST. IF A SAVED PERSON NEVER GETS BAPTIZED HE STILL GOES TO HEAVEN.

First of all, you don’t seem to want “help” with this passage, you want to tell us what it means. Not exactly a good way to start a topic, by being disingenuous.

Secondly, who are you to put words into the mouth of St. John the Baptist? He never said what you made it appear he said. He went on to say that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Why didn’t you quote that instead of putting your spin on baptism into John’s mouth?

And finally, since the Church came before the NT and decided what writings would be in it, the Church, not you, is much more qualified to tell us what any particular passage means.

Before coming to a Catholic site and telling us what’s what, you might try reading what the Church teaches, and most importantly, why. That is if you really want “help” understanding anything. :wink:


#8

[quote=Tom]A person is not “saved” until he is judged and accepted into heaven. Your salvation is not an event, it is a process, and Baptism is definitely a part of that process.
[/quote]

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_75.gif


#9

[quote=Della]First of all, you don’t seem to want “help” with this passage, you want to tell us what it means. Not exactly a good way to start a topic, by being disingenuous… . .
[/quote]

Della, I believe Kathleen has asked this arising from her concern for her sister-in-law - see the thread “One act of Faith”. She’s probably asking the question because it was first posed to her against Catholic teaching.


#10

I am a Catholic and I am engaging my SIL and I cannot think fast enough to reply so I am asking for help. I am a Catholic in every sense of the word except my apologetics needs your help. I am trying to find out what her thinking process is and take it from there. I am so sorry I made you think otherwise. Thanks for your help

[quote=Della]First of all, you don’t seem to want “help” with this passage, you want to tell us what it means. Not exactly a good way to start a topic, by being disingenuous.

Secondly, who are you to put words into the mouth of St. John the Baptist? He never said what you made it appear he said. He went on to say that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Why didn’t you quote that instead of putting your spin on baptism into John’s mouth?

And finally, since the Church came before the NT and decided what writings would be in it, the Church, not you, is much more qualified to tell us what any particular passage means.

Before coming to a Catholic site and telling us what’s what, you might try reading what the Church teaches, and most importantly, why. That is if you really want “help” understanding anything. :wink:
[/quote]


#11

Thanks for that! You are correct and sometimes I need help because I get so anxious in my answers. Does it seem to you that she is not interested in what I have to say or rather more interested in telling me what she deems to be true. If so any suggestions on turning the tide. This is truely my first hand in apolgetics and the last thing I want to do is turn her off.

Thanks and God Bless
Kathleen

[quote=FCEGM]Della, I believe Kathleen has asked this arising from her concern for her sister-in-law - see the thread “One act of Faith”. She’s probably asking the question because it was first posed to her against Catholic teaching.
[/quote]


#12

[quote=BOBKAT]Thanks for that! You are correct and sometimes I need help because I get so anxious in my answers. Does it seem to you that she is not interested in what I have to say or rather more interested in telling me what she deems to be true. If so any suggestions on turning the tide. This is truely my first hand in apolgetics and the last thing I want to do is turn her off.

Thanks and God Bless
Kathleen
[/quote]

Please forgive me! I thought, obviously, that you were one of those smart aleck types that come to Catholic websites and the tell Catholics what they ought to believe while knowing next to nothing about the teachings of the Church. I do apologize most sincerely! Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa! :o

As to the rest of my post, I hope it helps you turn the tables on your Baptist friend and show her how she is reading into this passage what is not there, which is a very poor way to interpret anything, but most especially Scripture passages. :wink:


#13

[quote=BOBKAT]Thanks for that! You are correct and sometimes I need help because I get so anxious in my answers. Does it seem to you that she is not interested in what I have to say or rather more interested in telling me what she deems to be true. If so any suggestions on turning the tide. This is truely my first hand in apolgetics and the last thing I want to do is turn her off.
[/quote]

I understand your anxiety, Kathleen. We want so much to have all our loved ones experience the depth of the Faith only found within Catholicism that we feel such grief over their lack of spiritual insight as well as over our inability to articulate well what is in our hearts. I think all of us suffer to one degree or another from wanting to be heard rather than wanting to hear :). Would she be open to receiving any Catholic books or tapes from you? This way you wouldn’t have to rely solely on your own apologetic abilities, but could be formed along with her. Perhaps you could both agree to read or listen to something together? I’m sure others here who have dealt with this problem within their own families will have more and better suggestions for you.

God bless you for your concern for your SIL.


#14

1 Peter 3:21

"Baptism, which corresponds to this*, now saves you,* not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

My own emphasis added.


#15

[quote=BOBKAT]First of all baptism is definitely a “symbolic act” John the Baptist states:

John 1:25-26 States : And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither a prophet? 26- John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standees one among you, whom ye know not; JESUS ALONE CAN BAPTIZE AND JESUS IS NOT HERE SO IT IS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION.

[/quote]

How do you know Jesus wasn’t there among the crowd? Three verses later we’re told that John saw Jesus coming toward him the next day. Possibly he knew that Jesus was around but hadn’t been able to pick him out in the crowd the day before. There are a bunch of different ways to read it, but you certainly can’t base an argument on the supposition that Jesus wasn’t there and so John is referring to some kind of spiritual Jesus. Go that route, and you will leave us with no real Jesus at all.

[quote=BOBKAT] BAPTISM IS JUST A PICTURE OF WHAT THE SOUL OF THE PERSON IS PUT THROUGH CHRIST’S DEATH , BURIAL , AND RESURRECTION. WHEN A PERSON GET’S SAVED HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD WITH CHRIST, BURIED WITH CHRIST AND RISEN WITH CHRIST. IF A SAVED PERSON NEVER GETS BAPTIZED HE STILL GOES TO HEAVEN.
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is claiming that a repentant and believing person is excluded from heaven because they weren’t baptized. If someone is willing to defend that position, then fine, I’ll back you up . . . .

But this does not prove that baptism is just a symbol. You assert this, but you give no evidence. Baptism with the spirit and baptism with water are not separated in Scripture. Spirit baptism is more than water baptism, but they aren’t in opposition to each other.

One way to put this is that baptism is a sign that (when received with faith) effects what it signifies. Can you accept that?

[quote=BOBKAT] Romans can explain Rom.6:3-4

3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptize into his death? how can we be baptized if Jesus is not, how can we be baptized with Jesus? because is is a symbol of salivation through faith.
[/quote]

I’m not clear on this–presumably you mean because Jesus isn’t being baptized at the same moment we are? But how is that necessary? The point is that our baptism (our real, physical water baptism, which if done as it should be gets us wet all over with real water) unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection. I don’t see how you get anything else out of this passage (well, I do see, because I know how much your tradition has indoctrinated you–I was taught the same stuff).

[quote=BOBKAT] 4- Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[/quote]

No mention of “just a symbol” here. You’re totally reading this into the text with no justification for doing so. All the evidence indicates that Paul is speaking of regular old water baptism.

That’s the God I worship. He made water. He likes the stuff. Why can’t He use it to unite us to Christ if He wants to? Who are you to tell God that the means He has chosen are too humble?

In Christ,

Edwin

P.S. I realize that you are answering a family member’s question. I won’t rewrite my post, but bear in mind that I’m addressing the person who made the argument, not you!


#16

Thanks everyone, After a day of back and forth she conceded until she can reload. Don’t get me wrong I love her dearly and I want to be as kind as I can in planting the seeds. I left her with this. A sacrament is an outward sign of faith instituted by Christ to obtain grace. It was my way of telling her that we catholics use our Christ given sacraments to obtain the grace we need for salvation. She said I should run for president. I got much help from all of you and I thank you for it. Anyhow I will see what tomorrow brings.

God Bless
Kathleen


#17

[quote=BOBKAT]Thanks everyone, After a day of back and forth she conceded until she can reload. Don’t get me wrong I love her dearly and I want to be as kind as I can in planting the seeds. I left her with this. A sacrament is an outward sign of faith instituted by Christ to obtain grace. It was my way of telling her that we catholics use our Christ given sacraments to obtain the grace we need for salvation. She said I should run for president. I got much help from all of you and I thank you for it. Anyhow I will see what tomorrow brings.

God Bless
Kathleen
[/quote]

Hi Kathleen!
My dear brothers and sisters! You all missed the most glaring problem with her SIL’s remarks…she said that only Jesus can baptize and that He is no longer here, which of course we know is bunk, but you all seem to have somehow missed the most definitive passage of the NT that will settle her contention once and for all in this matter… Look here at Matthew 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
17: And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted.
**18: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.
** (My emphasis)

Not only does this blow out her contention that Jesus is no longer here, but look at the very command (Great Commission!) of Our Lord Himself! “19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.
” If no one can baptize but Jesus then why did He command us to make disciple, teach them, and baptize them!???

Holy cats people! To steal a phrase from out n-C cousins, "Ya gotta study the Word!"
God bless you Kathleen. You know where to find us if she stumps ya again. One great investment is the Beginning Apologetics Series from San Juan Catholic Seminars .
Pax vobiscum,


#18

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.