Can someone who believes in OSAS help me?


#1

I posted this question on another thread for ‘Pastor Bob’ but he didn’t answer it. Could someone please help me understand the OSAS position given the scenario I have below? I’ve asked a friend of mine who believes in OSAS but she said it was rather complicated and would need to get back to me (that was about 4 months ago.). I would love to hear from someone who could answer this with concrete answers as opposed to answering it with ‘questions’. OSAS has always confused me and I would honestly like to try and understand it better.

Here’s the scenario:

Let’s say at the age of 15 I accepted Jesus and my Lord and Savior and this faith was obviously what I’ve heard referred to as ‘saving faith’. For 6 years it was obvious my life was dedicated to Jesus - I was active in evangelizing others, was baptized in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, and helped bring many people to the Lord. I was on fire for the Lord. Then I go off to college. I get lazy in my Christian faith and am exposed to people of many different faiths. I become intrigued with a non-Christian faith and 2 years later I begin worshiping with this non-Christian faith, renouncing my Christianity. I no longer believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is no longer, in my heart or my mind, my Lord and Savior. I am now dedicated to bringing Christians over to my newly found truth and am leading people away from Christ. In this scenario:

  1. Was I never saved to begin with, because if I had been, I wouldn’t have rejected Jesus 8 years later? If so, then how would I ever know I was saved since I can’t predict the future? Did I only think I was saved but really wasn’t all those years I was dedicating my life to Jesus?
  2. I’m still saved and if died tonight I would to to heaven, even though I now totally reject Christ and his work on the cross and actively try to get others to reject Him?
  3. I’ve given up my salvation through my own choice - not God’s - but if I repent and turn back I can once again be assured of my salvation because Jesus will always welcome me back.

Would the answers to the above questions be different if I didnt’t reject my Christianity but perhaps instead entered the world of child pornography or mass murdering? I still believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and that all my sins - past, present, and future - are forgiven and paid for through the work of Jesus on the cross. I’m just not living like I believe it.

Thank you!


#2

I am going through RCIA classes so I am still technically a protestant. My old self would have answered number 1, because if you were truely ‘saved’ the holy spirit wouldn’t allow you to fall away. That is what my expastor taught me. I had trouble with this belief because it seemed to defy the fact that good Christians do convert to other religions and leave the faith. It also takes away free will.


#3

My husband, who is protestant, would answer that I was still saved. I know this because we have played that scenario out almost verbatum. My father is an athiest, and when I cry he tries to comfort me by saying that maybe for one brief moment My father had accepted Christ…kaboom…saved!

That will be the problem for you in getting an understanding of this friend…protestants wont even agree about sola fide, and you’ll get conflicting answers…


#4

I have had different answers to a similiar question/scenario.

Some have told me that no matter what you do it doesn’t matter, because once you are saved, nothing, not even mass murdering can keep you out of Heaven.

Others have told me that if you turn away from Jesus then you were never really saved, even if you had originally thought you were and had accepted Jesus as your Saviour with your words and had meant it from your heart.

I don’t understand either belief though and it doesn’t make sense to me either way.


#5

It is surprising that no proponents of OSAS are commenting. :hmmm: If you posted a thread asking for scriptual proof of OSAS, you would get many responses from OSAS believers.


#6

Elzee

If you are interested in the doctrine of eternal salvation, you must do the work to understand what it states. I’ve listed below some sources for you to acquire and then you can study it for yourself.

Loraine Boettner, “The Perseverance of the Saints,” in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1932), pp. 182-201; Robert Gromacki, Is Salvation Forever? (Chicago: Moody Press, 1973); H.A. Ironside, The Eternal Security of the Believer (Neptune, NJ; Loizeaux, 1923); Edwin H. Palmer, “Perseverance of the Saints,” in *The Five Points of Calvinism *(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1972), p. 68-80; and Arthur Pink, Eternal Security (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1974).

Here is the truth of Eternal Security succinctly stated by one who understands:

I’ve found a friend, oh such a friend,
He loved me ere I knew Him;
He drew me with the cords of love
And thus He bound me to Him.

And round my heart still closely twine
Those ties which nought can sever;
For I am His and He is mine,
Forever, and forever.

Salvation is not found in a church, it is a gift, freely given by God, and He never takes it back.

Two words to think about: God Saves


#7

[quote=sonseeker]Elzee

If you are interested in the doctrine of eternal salvation, you must do the work to understand what it states. I’ve listed below some sources for you to acquire and then you can study it for yourself.

Loraine Boettner, “The Perseverance of the Saints,” in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1932), pp. 182-201; Robert Gromacki, Is Salvation Forever? (Chicago: Moody Press, 1973); H.A. Ironside, The Eternal Security of the Believer (Neptune, NJ; Loizeaux, 1923); Edwin H. Palmer, “Perseverance of the Saints,” in *The Five Points of Calvinism *(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1972), p. 68-80; and Arthur Pink, Eternal Security (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1974).

Here is the truth of Eternal Security succinctly stated by one who understands:

I’ve found a friend, oh such a friend,
He loved me ere I knew Him;
He drew me with the cords of love
And thus He bound me to Him.

And round my heart still closely twine
Those ties which nought can sever;
For I am His and He is mine,
Forever, and forever.

Salvation is not found in a church, it is a gift, freely given by God, and He never takes it back.

Two words to think about: God Saves
[/quote]

two questions. Will you answer the first question that the OP asked? I thought protestants believed that reading the bible itself was sufficient. Why do I have to read outside books to understand ‘eternal security’? Doesn’t this violate a commonly held protestant belief?


#8

[quote=deb1]two questions. Will you answer the first question that the OP asked? I thought protestants believed that reading the bible itself was sufficient. Why do I have to read outside books to understand ‘eternal security’? Doesn’t this violate a commonly held protestant belief?
[/quote]

Yes, it sounds dangerously close to following the traditions of men, rather than the Bible alone… any time I give references from the Early Fathers to explain Catholic doctrine, or even contemporary Catholic theologians. I am met with comments such as “They aren’t in the Bible…”

Here is the truth of Eternal Security succinctly stated by one who understands:

I’ve found a friend, oh such a friend,
He loved me ere I knew Him;
He drew me with the cords of love
And thus He bound me to Him.

And round my heart still closely twine
Those ties which nought can sever;
For I am His and He is mine,
Forever, and forever.

Salvation is not found in a church, it is a gift, freely given by God, and He never takes it back.

Two words to think about: God Saves

This is not in the Bible… so if you are into the sola scriptura crowd, then you are quoting things that are not in the Bible…
The Bible says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling and that only those who persevere in riteousness will enter the kingdom of heaven., it also says that the way for Christ to dwell in you and you in him is to eat His Body and drink His Blood, as he gave the example at the passover meal when he said DO THIS in memory of me. He gave us very clear instruction. We are perfectly able to reject our own salvation, to reject that free gift from God. It is nice to think of ourselves as “saved” or on the path to heaven, but we have free will and are perfectly equipped to follow or reject God.

IF you are saying that salvation cannot be found in a physical building “church” then you are right, but when we refer to “The Church” we are talking about the members who make up the Body of Christ. We are required to serve and love to our capacity. This builds our relationship with Christ, prunes our branches, helps us to understand Christ more fully. What kind of relationship would it be if we said “ok God, I know I’m saved, thanks.” and never needed any other response. That is like a new groom saying to his bride…"OK, you are my wife now, I don’t need to take care of you or talk to you or help you in anyway. I will just let you do everything for me while i go about my merry way. It’s ok if I commit adultry, right? You will never leave me so I will just treat you like yesterdays news, because no matter what I do we will always be married…

Saving Grace is a gift only from God, cannot be earned. It can be rejected. Our faith is more than just saing “I accept Jesus Christ” it is a* relationship* with Christ. This is what St. Paul meant when he said “{faith without works is dead.” The relationship with God is not flourishing unless we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, out of LOVE for God. The more gifts we have the more we are expected to give, we were given our gifts freely and we must give freely.


#9

[quote=deb1]two questions. Will you answer the first question that the OP asked? I thought protestants believed that reading the bible itself was sufficient. Why do I have to read outside books to understand ‘eternal security’? Doesn’t this violate a commonly held protestant belief?
[/quote]

One answer: I have, and it does not satisfy you.


#10

[quote=sonseeker]One answer: I have, and it does not satisfy you.
[/quote]

But you clearly haven’t. You obviously have a good deal of erudition on this point, but you approach an honest question as though traps are being set for you. The question Elzee posed was not of the “are you still beating your wife?” or some other unanswerable form. Granted, making it a “multiple choice” question may be a bit constraining, but you’re allowed to answer in essay form. If none of those answers suffice, please explain. A reading list is most decidedly not an answer.


#11

To me it seems as though the belief is saying that salvation rests on acknowledging Jesus as your personal Savior.

But obviously actions can cause us to lose our salvation. Look at Adam and Eve. If actions hadn’t caused us to lose our salvation in the beginning, then we wouldn’t have needed the “action” of the torture and crucifixition of our Lord to make things right.


#12

[quote=deb1]I thought protestants believed that reading the bible itself was sufficient. Why do I have to read outside books to understand ‘eternal security’? Doesn’t this violate a commonly held protestant belief?
[/quote]

To understand the sufficiency of the Bible, read Scripture Alone, by James White. Once you have done that, you will understand what is meant by sola scriptura. Perhaps then we can discuss it.


#13

[quote=Peace-bwu]Yes, it sounds dangerously close to following the traditions of men, rather than the Bible alone…
[/quote]

No, that is what you (pl.) do! Do you realize that you call it “dangerously” following?

[quote=Peace-bwu]What kind of relationship would it be if we said “ok God, I know I’m saved, thanks.” and never needed any other response.
[/quote]

You too, need to first understand the doctrine, before any fruitful discussion. Read the Boettner book above, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. A studied reading will take you several months; perhaps then we can discuss it.

[quote=Peace-bwu]That is like a new groom saying to his bride…"OK, you are my wife now, I don’t need to take care of you or talk to you or help you in anyway. I will just let you do everything for me while i go about my merry way. It’s ok if I commit adultry, right? You will never leave me so I will just treat you like yesterdays news, because no matter what I do we will always be married…
[/quote]

Except for the fact that you reverse the players, your analogy is superb! Remember, Christ is the groom! The church is the bride—the true believer! Christ will take care of the true believer, and help him in every way; He will never go His merry way, leaving the true believer; He will never commit adultery, though the true believer may (see Lk 22:31; 54-62), but Christ will restore him, (Jn 21:15-17). The true believer will never leave Christ, because, (“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” [Jn 10:29-30]) the Father will not allow it, and because the Father and the Son are one, neither will the Son allow it.

As you rightly say that Christ says, “no matter what…we will always be married.”

Read the book; perhaps then, I will discuss it with you.


#14

[quote=sonseeker]No, that is what you (pl.) do! Do you realize that you call it “dangerously” following?

You too, need to first understand the doctrine, before any fruitful discussion. Read the Boettner book above, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. A studied reading will take you several months; perhaps then we can discuss it.Except for the fact that you reverse the players, your analogy is superb! Remember, Christ is the groom! The church is the bride—the true believer! Christ will take care of the true believer, and help him in every way; He will never go His merry way, leaving the true believer; He will never commit adultery, though the true believer may (see Lk 22:31; 54-62), but Christ will restore him, (Jn 21:15-17). The true believer will never leave Christ, because, (“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” [Jn 10:29-30]) the Father will not allow it, and because the Father and the Son are one, neither will the Son allow it.

As you rightly say that Christ says, “no matter what…we will always be married.”

Read the book; perhaps then, I will discuss it with you.
[/quote]

You are off subject…read the question the OP posted…read the scenario she gave and explain where you stand on the issue like I did for my husband in post # 3

:ehh: …is that person still saved or not?


#15

[quote=Elzee]I posted this question on another thread for ‘Pastor Bob’ but he didn’t answer it. Could someone please help me understand the OSAS position given the scenario I have below? I’ve asked a friend of mine who believes in OSAS but she said it was rather complicated and would need to get back to me (that was about 4 months ago.). I would love to hear from someone who could answer this with concrete answers as opposed to answering it with ‘questions’. OSAS has always confused me and I would honestly like to try and understand it better.

Here’s the scenario:

Let’s say at the age of 15 I accepted Jesus and my Lord and Savior and this faith was obviously what I’ve heard referred to as ‘saving faith’. For 6 years it was obvious my life was dedicated to Jesus - I was active in evangelizing others, was baptized in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, and helped bring many people to the Lord. I was on fire for the Lord. Then I go off to college. I get lazy in my Christian faith and am exposed to people of many different faiths. I become intrigued with a non-Christian faith and 2 years later I begin worshiping with this non-Christian faith, renouncing my Christianity. I no longer believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is no longer, in my heart or my mind, my Lord and Savior. I am now dedicated to bringing Christians over to my newly found truth and am leading people away from Christ. In this scenario:

  1. Was I never saved to begin with, because if I had been, I wouldn’t have rejected Jesus 8 years later? If so, then how would I ever know I was saved since I can’t predict the future? Did I only think I was saved but really wasn’t all those years I was dedicating my life to Jesus?
  2. I’m still saved and if died tonight I would to to heaven, even though I now totally reject Christ and his work on the cross and actively try to get others to reject Him?
  3. I’ve given up my salvation through my own choice - not God’s - but if I repent and turn back I can once again be assured of my salvation because Jesus will always welcome me back.

Would the answers to the above questions be different if I didnt’t reject my Christianity but perhaps instead entered the world of child pornography or mass murdering? I still believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and that all my sins - past, present, and future - are forgiven and paid for through the work of Jesus on the cross. I’m just not living like I believe it.

Thank you!

Hi Elzee
I hope this helps you. I believe that OSAS give people a false sense of security. Paul even writes about it in scriptures

1Co 9:27 No, I keep on beating my body and making it my slave so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not somehow be disqualified.

If Paul prays and studies and preaches to keep from being disqualified then we should as well. The scripture they use for there argument says that "God will never cast you out of his hand"
For some reason I can’t remember where the scripture is but I or someone else can get it for you later. The scripture does not say that we cannot jump out of his hand. Your right, we do have free will.
Thanks
[/quote]


#16

[quote=sonseeker]Elzee

If you are interested in the doctrine of eternal salvation, you must do the work to understand what it states. I’ve listed below some sources for you to acquire and then you can study it for yourself.

Loraine Boettner, “The Perseverance of the Saints,” in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1932), pp. 182-201; Robert Gromacki, Is Salvation Forever? (Chicago: Moody Press, 1973); H.A. Ironside, The Eternal Security of the Believer (Neptune, NJ; Loizeaux, 1923); Edwin H. Palmer, “Perseverance of the Saints,” in *The Five Points of Calvinism *(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1972), p. 68-80; and Arthur Pink, Eternal Security (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1974).

Here is the truth of Eternal Security succinctly stated by one who understands:

I’ve found a friend, oh such a friend,
He loved me ere I knew Him;
He drew me with the cords of love
And thus He bound me to Him.

And round my heart still closely twine
Those ties which nought can sever;
For I am His and He is mine,
Forever, and forever.

Salvation is not found in a church, it is a gift, freely given by God, and He never takes it back.

Two words to think about: God Saves
[/quote]

Thank you for the resources. I’ve done quite a bit of research and studying on this already, but it has all been Scriptural research, which I prefer to stick with. To me, the bible should be sufficient for me to understand this since my friends who believe in OSAS base their belief strictly on what they have read in the bible, and they say it is a very simple concept. However, when I posed a friend of mine the situation above because I really wanted to understand the belief but couldn’t through my own studying, I was told it was complicated and I’ve never gotten an answer. So, my problem isn’t that I haven’t first tried to understand it on my own, it’s that, based on what I HAVE learned on my own I don’t know how the OSAS belief would play out in the scenario I gave - in other words, the application of it to real life situations.

Is there anyone out there who can answer my questions??


#17

Hi Elzee,

I dont’ have much to say other than the OSAS believers at my office would go with #1. When asked how do they know then that they aren’t just fooling themselves like the person in your original post, I get vague, touchy, feely statements like “I can feel it in my heart” or “I changed for the better when I was born again”.

Here is an e-letter from Karl Keating basically dealing with the same subject:

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp

Here is a follow-up to the letter:

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041123.asp

Hope they help.


#18

[quote=sonseeker]To understand the sufficiency of the Bible, read Scripture Alone, by James White. Once you have done that, you will understand what is meant by sola scriptura. Perhaps then we can discuss it.

[/quote]

If you aren’t going to answer the question or if you think that we are too dull to understand then why post in the first place? By the way, I am the former member of a very fundamentalist Baptist church. I might understand more then you think about sola scriptura.

Just a question, doesn’t James White have connections to Alpha Omega? And isn’t Bottener(sorry about spelling) an anti catholic? If I read these books, would you read any Catholic book that people on this site suggested to you?


#19

[quote=marcadam]But you clearly haven’t. You obviously have a good deal of erudition on this point, but you approach an honest question as though traps are being set for you. The question Elzee posed was not of the “are you still beating your wife?” or some other unanswerable form. Granted, making it a “multiple choice” question may be a bit constraining, but you’re allowed to answer in essay form. If none of those answers suffice, please explain. A reading list is most decidedly not an answer.
[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying - I really didn’t mean for the multiple choice to be constraining - I thought it would help clarify to the responder* my* confusion on OSAS and the difficulty I’m having understanding its application. These were the only ‘answers’ I personally could come up with, so I listed them - I just can’t figure out which one is correct. If none of them are, then yes, please just give me the correct answer!


#20

[quote=Elzee]I posted this question on another thread for ‘Pastor Bob’ but he didn’t answer it. Could someone please help me understand the OSAS position given the scenario I have below?
[/quote]

There are two versions of OSAS – the Calvinist version, and the antinomian version. The answer that you get from a hardcore OSAS believer depends on which version of this heresy that person clings to.

The Baptists typically believe in the antinomian version of OSAS. That is, they believe that once a man gets “saved”, that there is no conceivable sin that a “saved” man could commit that would lead to his damnation. Thus, the antinomian heretic would answer that it doesn’t matter that the “saved” boy has backslid as an adult and become an unrepentant atheist, New Ager, Satanist or whatever. There is NO sin that can make the “saved” boy lose his salvation, and that includes the sin of unrepentant apostasy.

The believer in Calvinist-OSAS heresy will answer differently than the typical antinomian Baptist. The hypothetical person in your scenario only thought he was a Christian when he was fifteen years old, but he was really a member of the “damned but don’t know it” crowd. The problem with belief in Calvinist-OSAS (besides believing in a lie) is that it often leads to “salvation anxiety”. Even if I think that I am one of the elect, how can I really, really, REALLY be sure that I am not one of the damned-but-don’t-know-it crowd?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.