Can The Church survive in an islamic world?


#1

Can The Church survive in an islamic world?

The first time I wonder if Christianity could exist within a islamic controlled region is when I heard that in islam alcohol is prohibited. How does alcohol relate to Christianity? For some Christians wine is used during their ceremonies. But from my understanding for some Christians once the wine is consecrated it is no longer ordinary wine It is the sacred Blood of Jesus. And even though a small amount is consumed by a single person participating in the ceremony by islamic standards it is still haram.

[quote="[URL=http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_101_150/alcohol_and_islam.htm]Alcohol and Islam
[/quote]

"]‘Every intoxicating substance is haram, and whatever intoxicates in large amounts, a handful of it is haram.’

I don’t know the islamic perspective to how a follower of islam sees the actions of non-islamic people i.e. do they see other religions that use wine as committing haram… so if wine is forbidden, I am only guessing that in an islamic controlled country so would a ceremony including wine would also be forbidden. Something like that I wouldn’t know how it would be answered.

Even though it is something I don’t have an answer for, what I found out when heard about the muttawa arrest Filipinos who attend a mass (in 2010) was that religious articles can not be worn nor other sacred images are allowed to be shown in the homes of non-islamic people in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there there is also a ban on the construction of non-islamic places of worship in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there the latest thing I heard was there was a call for destruction of Churches in the region. So whether it is an docile act of worship, or a personal display of devotion or even a place of worship it seems that there is an intolerance for the freedom of non-islamic religious expression in Saudi Arabia and surrounding areas. Is this attitude toward churches only that of Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah or do you think that this something could spread throughout other ilsamic controlled regions? Can The Church survive in a islamic controlled world?

Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Churches in Region


#2

Of course it can survive! Just look how the Church was persecuted during the first few centuries. It may not be able to function as openly and easily as it does in the US or Europe, but history shows that Christianity thrives under persecution. We have to have faith that Christ will protect His bride and pray constantly for those being persecuted.


#3

If Islam prevailed in Europe, the Catholic Church as well as Christianity would be in dire peril. Yes, the Catholic Church would survive, but not in Europe.
One must learn from history. And the history lesson most people forget is that what is now Egypt, Syria and Turkey were the first areas outside of Palestine that were converted to Christianity. and remained Christian for over 500 years.
Islam was founded around 612 AD and started to spread in 622 AD the year in which the Moslem calender starts. Within 100 years, most of Lebanon, Egypt, and almost all of Syria and Turkey were Moslem. This mass conversion was accomplished by military conquest. The populations either converted to Islam or were slaughtered. By the eighth century A.D., all of North Africa and much of Southern Spain were firmly under control of the Moslems. In all of these areas Christians suffered severe persecution and martyrdom.
Islam's incursion into Europe ended with the Turkish siege of Vienna in 1683. The Polish-Lithuanian defeated the Turks so badly that they never again were a military threat to Western Europe.
Today, Islam is on the edge of conquering Europe, not by military force, but by immigration.


#4

Let’s turn this around: Can Islam survive the information age, and can the Qur’an survive critical review?

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/on-the-fragility-of-islam.html#


#5

[quote="George_Stegmeir, post:3, topic:278057"]
If Islam prevailed in Europe, the Catholic Church as well as Christianity would be in dire peril. Yes, the Catholic Church would survive, but not in Europe.

[/quote]

"The Faith is Europe, and Europe is the Faith". -Hilaire Belloc

So... do you think we should listen to Geert Wilders? And that the people in Europe should elect other politicians that want to deport Moslems that don't assimilate?

... And I don't want to hear about how Euorope can't do that or else Moslems will kill Christians in their countries. That's already happening. The "Arab Spring" was marred with the blood of Middle East Christians. And Moreover, there was just a story last week of the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia saying that all Churches should be destroyed in the Arabian peninsula (which includes Kuwait). Shouldn't the U.N. be sanctioning these people? Oh, I forgot the U.N. doesn't care about Christian persecution... well excuuuuuse me!

Well, currently Christianity is doing the worst of the monotheistic religions in the battle against secularism. Try googling "secularism defeated" All the results on the first page are about the Moslems defeating secualrism, with the exception about 1 story about the Vatican, and 1 about the U.S. Supreme Court.

As for the Koran being critically reviewed. Just look into the most wanted man in Islam: Fr. Zakaria Botros


#6

It’s survived far worse threats. I can not imagine it not surviving an Islamic world. It is, after all, the only institution on earth that can correctly claim that God is on its side [or more correctly it is on God’s side].


#7

Of course the church would survive. You think the truth of God would just disappear off the face of the earth? I agree that as more time passes, there will be less followers, but it will never completely disappear. God’s truth will never go away.


#8

The Polish-Lithuanian defeated the Turks so badly that they never again were a military threat to Western Europe.http://www.nling.info/g.gif


#9

[quote="po18guy, post:4, topic:278057"]
Let's turn this around: Can Islam survive the information age, and can the Qur'an survive critical review?

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/on-the-fragility-of-islam.html#

[/quote]

The Bible has survived critical review...so has the Book of Mormon....The Science and Health.....don't see why the Holy Qur'an would be any different.


#10

Did you read the article by Fr. James Schall? Give it a try.


#11

From the article:

Scholars, mostly German, have been working quietly for many decades to produce a critical edition of the Koran that takes into consideration the “pre-history” of the Koran. Due to the Muslim belief that any effort to question the Koran’s text is blasphemy, the enterprise is fraught with personal risk to the researchers. The idea that the text cannot be investigated, of course, only feeds suspicion that even Muslims worry about its integrity.


#12

Just as a growing number of Christians no longer see the Bible as some "mystic tome" dictated by God to it's writers.....so too will a growing number of Muslims find the Qur'an is not that "mystic tome" delivered by an angel...but a product of it's time and reflects the beliefs of those first Muslims who tried to understand the experience and vision the prophet had which transformed Arabic culture.

Islam is yet to have it's "Reformation"....but it is coming.


#13

[quote="George_Stegmeir, post:3, topic:278057"]
If Islam prevailed in Europe, the Catholic Church as well as Christianity would be in dire peril. Yes, the Catholic Church would survive, but not in Europe.
One must learn from history. And the history lesson most people forget is that what is now Egypt, Syria and Turkey were the first areas outside of Palestine that were converted to Christianity. and remained Christian for over 500 years.
Islam was founded around 612 AD and started to spread in 622 AD the year in which the Moslem calender starts. Within 100 years, most of Lebanon, Egypt, and almost all of Syria and Turkey were Moslem. This mass conversion was accomplished by military conquest. The populations either converted to Islam or were slaughtered. By the eighth century A.D., all of North Africa and much of Southern Spain were firmly under control of the Moslems. In all of these areas Christians suffered severe persecution and martyrdom.
Islam's incursion into Europe ended with the Turkish siege of Vienna in 1683. The Polish-Lithuanian defeated the Turks so badly that they never again were a military threat to Western Europe.
Today, Islam is on the edge of conquering Europe, not by military force, but by immigration.

[/quote]

You forget Greece, where the Orthodox survived the fall of Constantinople, centuries of military occupation, forced assimilation, and coerced religious conversion.

If Greece can still stand, and the GOC, the Catholic Church should be able to!


#14

[quote="po18guy, post:10, topic:278057"]
Did you read the article by Fr. James Schall? Give it a try.

[/quote]

Yes I did....didn't see anything that would change my statment.


#15

[quote="John_Paul_Jones, post:1, topic:278057"]
Can The Church survive in an islamic world?

The first time I wonder if Christianity could exist within a islamic controlled region is when I heard that in islam alcohol is prohibited. How does alcohol relate to Christianity? For some Christians wine is used during their ceremonies. But from my understanding for some Christians once the wine is consecrated it is no longer ordinary wine It is the sacred Blood of Jesus. And even though a small amount is consumed by a single person participating in the ceremony by islamic standards it is still haram.

I don't know the islamic perspective to how a follower of islam sees the actions of non-islamic people i.e. do they see other religions that use wine as committing haram... so if wine is forbidden, I am only guessing that in an islamic controlled country so would a ceremony including wine would also be forbidden. Something like that I wouldn't know how it would be answered.

Even though it is something I don't have an answer for, what I found out when heard about the muttawa arrest Filipinos who attend a mass (in 2010) was that religious articles can not be worn nor other sacred images are allowed to be shown in the homes of non-islamic people in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn't stop there there is also a ban on the construction of non-islamic places of worship in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn't stop there the latest thing I heard was there was a call for destruction of Churches in the region. So whether it is an docile act of worship, or a personal display of devotion or even a place of worship it seems that there is an intolerance for the freedom of non-islamic religious expression in Saudi Arabia and surrounding areas. Is this attitude toward churches only that of Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah or do you think that this something could spread throughout other ilsamic controlled regions? Can The Church survive in a islamic controlled world?

Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Churches in Region

[/quote]

There are still Christians in the Middle East after nearly 1400 years of Islamic rule. Muslims do not forbid Christian use of wine--in fact, historically they've never been entirely able to get their own folks to stop using it altogether!

Edwin


#16

Of course the Church can survive as promised by Jesus.


#17

As our brothers, the Copts, to find out what it feels like to be a Christian in a Muslim land.


#18

[quote="po18guy, post:4, topic:278057"]
Let's turn this around: Can Islam survive the information age, and can the Qur'an survive critical review?

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/on-the-fragility-of-islam.html#

[/quote]

Well to start it's the Age of Misinformation not the Information Age. Whatever misconception that are found and corrects that are brought to light it will probably has as much effect as the other anachronism and mistakes that are already known to be found in the koran. Anyway the writer fails to mention that the connection of islam to Gnostic Christianity.

[quote="Publisher, post:9, topic:278057"]
The Bible has survived critical review...so has the Book of Mormon....The Science and Health.....don't see why the Holy Qur'an would be any different.Just as a growing number of Christians no longer see** the Bible as some "mystic tome" dictated by God to it's writers**.....

[/quote]

Comparing the Bible to the Book of Mormon or the koran is an apples to orange comparison. The Bible is a collection of books with different writers. Those writers (who books are part of the cannon) were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The belief that the Bible is divinely inspired hasn't changed. Even how the they came about is different, BOM and the koran are claimed to come about through personal visions, (St. John and St. Paul had visions and those visions were written about) but there is not one book in the Bible that is claimed to be a word for word dictation of God or an angel that was seen in a vision to an individual.

[quote="Publisher, post:9, topic:278057"]
so too will a growing number of Muslims find the Qur'an is not that "mystic tome" delivered by an angel...but a product of it's time and reflects the beliefs of those first Muslims who tried to understand the experience and vision the prophet had which transformed Arabic culture.

Islam is yet to have it's "Reformation"....but it is coming.

[/quote]

Even if a Reformation was to happen there would be another movement within islam that would be equally opposed to it ... and who is to say there weren't changes that already happen and prime example of being opposed to such changes would be Wahhabism.


#19

[quote="John_Paul_Jones, post:1, topic:278057"]
Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Churches in Region

[/quote]

That is not strange...., that Saudi Arabian Mufti is only repeating what Muhammed instructed in one of his authentic hadiths:

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366:]("http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php")
".....I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim."


#20

The church survived the Roman empire “in” Rome. It survived 300-years of Islamic occupation. Its been right where it was build for 2000 years. I’d say it will be just fine.

Christianity in the Arab world is a different situation, Egypt, Syria now, Iraq. Personally I think we ought to be helping the Christians a bit more. However with a President who unleased the most historic attack in US history on Religious Freedom, I wouldn’t count on anything. In fact I would expect “anything” at this point from Obama. Every dictator promised democracy, then the first attack always is the opium of the people…RELIGION!


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