Can the Holy Spirit Leave the R.C.C.?


#1

Can the Holy Spirit leave the Roman Catholic Church? In the Old Testament, even Virgin Israel sinned against God, and because Israel would not heed God’s frequent entreaties, God finally left Israel. His Presence left the Temple, abandoning Israel to her fate.

Can the same happen to the Roman Catholic Church? Can the Holy Spirit leave the bishops, the people, the priests, or the Eucharist because of sin in the Roman Catholic Church?

I’m especially interested how God treats shepherds in the Old Testament. Fed up with the corrupt shepherds of his people, God declares that He himself will be his People’s Shepherd.

Is there the possibility that, were Catholic bishops to widely disregard the Gospel, that God would replace them with, say, His own Word, as the guiding Shepherd of his flock?

I thought this thread would fit better in this forum, because it would get more varied answers than were I to put it in the Apologetics section.
Thanks!


#2

John 14:16-18

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


[LEFT]I think anything virtually is possible, but it would seem unlikely that God would break his promise. It also seems likely that if God had intended the truth of Revelation to be preseved until the end of time that he would safe gaurd the deposit of faith with some kind of infallible charism does it not?

Cardinal John Henry Newman came to the faith this was. Cardinal Avery Dulles wrote a great book about him- christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/536705552?item_no=62873&event=2018SBF|636194|70506[/LEFT]


#3

Originally Posted by FightingFat:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

According to the RCC though, when a person sins, he falls out of a state of grace. Also, can’t a person apostasize, Blaspheme Against the Holy Spirit, in which case that person cannot be forgiven? What if whole swathes of bishops apostasize from the Faith? Does the Holy Spirit remain with them?


#4

Whole swathes? I guess that happened in the early Church when it was said that Athanasius was the only non-Arian in the East. The Church got through it, though. The promise is not that we will come through everything sleek and fat. Sometimes it’s more like one step short of life support. But we know Who made the promise. I, for one, ain’t messin’ with the Boss!


#5

Don’t forget Matthew 28:20

“And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


#6

I would say that is very much a part of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Apostacy has not occured and the Church still retains the marks of Catholicism. The nature of the Church must be authentically apostolic and the Catholic Church retains its apostolisticy. Roman Catholicism has a Petrine tradition, Apostolicity, the Sacraments- ask yourself if the Church Fathers found themselves on earth today, where would they consider the true Church of Jesus Christ?


#7

No. God didn’t leave Isreal. He gave it one heck of a parental spanking though. The Spirit might leave individuals who sin and do not recieve the sacrements, but not the institution of the Church.


#8

In keeping with your original question, if whole swathes left, the Church would still survive.

As to whether the Holy Spirit remains, the indelible mark imparted on them during their Holy Orders would remain. The Spirit remains insomuch as they are free to reject it, like any grace. The Spirit they have received does not leave them, but a peson can reject it or repent and return of his own accord.


#9

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

So the answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never leave the R.C.C.


#10

The Church is the Body of Christ, and we are its members. The Holy Spirit is its soul. Just as our body is animated by our soul, so the Church as the body of Christ is animated by the Holy Spirit, as a living entity. The soul cannot depart the body until death, neither can the Holy Spirit depart the body of Christ.


#11

Could Jesus let go of 1 good sheep because of 99 bad sheeps?

anyhow, it is not going to happen that “Catholic bishops were to widely disregard the Gospel”.


#12

Can the Holy Spirit Leave the R.C.C.?

Yes, He can do what He wishes. He is divine.

Will the Holy Spirit Leave the R.C.C.?

Highly unlikely as God does not lie. He has made a covenant that the Spirit of Truth will guide us, He will not break His covenant. Of this I am fully confidant.


#13

The Holy Spirit doesn’t reside in the RCC. The Holy Spirit resides in all of us when we are baptized and accept Jesus as our savior. Once we accept Jesus as our savior we become a member of His church and receive the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The Holy Spirit is not institutionalized.


#14

If it resides in all of us then it most certainly resides in the Church that Christ founded; and more so, since this is the Church that He wants people to come to.


#15

Believers in Christ are the Church. The Church is not a building that contains the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not limited to just the RCC. All Christians have the power of the Holy Spirit.


#16

Yes, that is true; however, you made an error by saying that the Holy Spirit does not reside in the Catholic Church, because it certainly does.


#17

Catholics would agree that the Holy Spirit is not “institutionalized.” Many receive gifts of the Spirit: apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in tongues . . . . In the New Testament, the Spirit is received in different ways for different things.

In our present life, for example, the “grace of state” is the particular grace received by people who enter certain conditions of life: marriage, Holy Orders, positions of authority.

The guidance of the Holy Spirit received by the bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome is the charism for teaching, and for transmitting sacramental grace under the condition of their office. THIS charism IS particular to the teaching office of the Church. We laymen receive that same grace in accord with our position and service in the Body.

I teach 6th grade CCD. When I teach my kids, they receive the fruit of the teaching charism of the magisterium.

Does that mean that under magisterial authority my own experience of guidance by the Holy Spirit is chopped liver? Not at all. In fact, I have been granted much spiritual insight through Scripture study and receiving the sacraments.

I receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. I receive the Holy Spirit in confirmation. The Holy Spirit guides my examinations of conscience and is the author of my good confessions. The Holy Spirit comes down upon the bread and wine when the priest holds his hands over the elements and prays the epiclesis at Mass. The Holy Spirit guides me in reading Scripture . . . .

You make it sound like the Church keeps the Holy Spirit on a leash. Ugh! If you really THINK about it, could you REALLY believe that the depth, breadth and height of theological sensitivity of the Catholic Church would allow such a trivial notion of the Holy Spirit?

Give us a little credit here!


#18

You make it sound like the Church keeps the Holy Spirit on a leash. Ugh! If you really THINK about it, could you REALLY believe that the depth, breadth and height of theological sensitivity of the Catholic Church would allow such a trivial notion of the Holy Spirit?

Give us a little credit here!

You’re making my point exactly. I never said that the RCC keeps a leash on the Holy Spirit. The original question is can the Holy Spirit leave the RCC. I’m answering and basically saying no it cannot because the Holy Spirit exists in anyone who professes and accepts Jesus as their savior, Catholic/Protestant/Non-denom etc. etc. The Holy Spirit will not leave us. We can choose to ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The implication of another post made it seem as if the Holy Spirit only existed in the RCC. So your response is better suited for that post not mine. Stop being so defensive.


#19

If you define the Catholic Church as a body of believers in Christ then yes the Holy Spirit does exist in the Catholic Church. It also exists in the Protestant Churches and Non-denominational churches. Basically any believer in Christ.


#20

I apologize if I came off as defensive. We get a lot of “My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit” on these forums from non-Catholic interlocutors who hold that any individual Christian can, without recourse to anything other than his own Bible and his personal relationship with Jesus Christ come to a full understanding of Christian doctrine. They can sometimes be extremely dogmatic and hopelessly naive.

Nevertheless, Catholics DO hold that the charism of the Holy Spirit for teaching authentic doctrine in its entirety is unique to the Magisterium of the Church: the bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome. So in that particular sense, based on dominical promise, this aspect of the Holy Spirit’s guidance is unique to the Catholic Church.


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