Can the Pope say that he is infallible?


#1

Hello,

I was wondering about this: Can the Pope say that he is infallible? If so, then does that means that infallibility is imposed to the Pope by the Pope?

How is that any different than circular thinking?


#2

[quote=salival]Hello,

I was wondering about this: Can the Pope say that he is infallible? If so, then does that means that infallibility is imposed to the Pope by the Pope?

How is that any different than circular thinking?
[/quote]

The infallibility of the pope is not conferred on the pope by another pope. It is a teaching of the Church that promises that the pope cannot err in matters of faith and morals. It does not mean that the pope is personally infallible. If it did mean that, then it might be regarded in the way you cited.


#3

[quote=Della]The infallibility of the pope is not conferred on the pope by another pope. It is a teaching of the Church that promises that the pope cannot err in matters of faith and morals. It does not mean that the pope is personally infallible. If it did mean that, then it might be regarded in the way you cited.
[/quote]

But isn’t the Pope selected by the voting of other men? It is passed not by Pope but still by other men. Right?


#4

posted by salival
But isn’t the Pope selected by the voting of other men? It is passed not by Pope but still by other men. Right?

:nope: It is passed on by the leading of the Holy Spirit.


#5

[quote=MariaG]:nope: It is passed on by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Ok, but according to whom? Who said that it is passed down by the leading of The Holy Spirit?


#6

[quote=salival]But isn’t the Pope selected by the voting of other men? It is passed not by Pope but still by other men. Right?
[/quote]

The pope’s election by other men says nothing about the charism of infallibility that is a part of the office. Whoever is elected pope gains this charism as a part of the office. The charism is conferred on the pope by the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, and not solely by the men through whom He works. God has worked through imperfect men all through history. The only perfect man was Jesus, and even he passed on his authority to fallible men. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the teachings and charisms of the Church valid as He works through the men called by God to serve the Church in the ministerial priesthood.


#7

[quote=Della]The pope’s election by other men says nothing about the charism of infallibility that is a part of the office. Whoever is elected pope gains this charism as a part of the office. The charism is conferred on the pope by the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, and not solely by the men through whom He works. God has worked through imperfect men all through history. The only perfect man was Jesus, and even he passed on his authority to fallible men. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the teachings and charisms of the Church valid as He works through the men called by God to serve the Church in the ministerial priesthood.
[/quote]

This is a good answer. But the question comes down into who decided that the pope gains the charism of infallibility as part of his office? Who determined that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex-cathedra?


#8

posted by salival

Ok, but according to whom? Who said that it is passed down by the leading of The Holy Spirit?

In the Bible, Scripture tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. It also tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us.

The church fathers also. catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp

God Bless,
Maria


#9

[quote=salival]This is a good answer. But the question comes down into who decided that the pope gains the charism of infallibility as part of his office? Who determined that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex-cathedra?
[/quote]

It has been true always and everywhere. I think your question is how and when was it officially defined (remember just because something has not been defined yet doesn’t mean it hasn’t always been true, ie Jesus’ divinity was defined by a council). Is that your question?


#10

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence.** But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot** teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).

This is from here. catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

It is a quick read. Try reading it and then asking more questions.

God Bless,
Maria


#11

salival

sola scriptura is a grave error.

Once you understand that, all of your confusion will vanish.


#12

Thanks for the links MariaG.


#13

By logic we cannot prove that the pope is infallible.

It is an article of faith. Faith, by definition, is only needed when dealing with the unknown. If it could be logically or scientifically proven then no faith would be required as we would “know” it through convincing worldly means

The church teaches this infallibility stuff. You can choose to believe it or not. Some think you’ll go to hell if you believe the wrong way. I say the Lord will call you to believe in His time.

Blessed is he who does not see but yet believes.

Alan


#14

Hello Salival,

There are some other CA threads on Papal infallibility on the faith and morals issue regarding abortion. According to these threads, St. Augustine believed that life started at the “quickening” (when the mother could feel the child move). Later “when God enlightened Church leaders through the understanding of modern science” the Pope used this new information to state that life starts at conception. In many Catholics understanding of “infailibility” on faith and morals, they would assume that God would not have relied on modern science to protect life from the moment of conception. Many Catholics would have assumed that God would have revealed the faith and morals issue of life at conception regardless of what science did not know at the time.

These threads lead us to talk about and think about how “infailability” actually works in protecting the Church on issues of faith and morals.

I am just forwarding these ideas expressed on other threads. Possibly you would like to take a look.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=38663&highlight=quickening+augustine

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=38003&highlight=quickening+augustine

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#15

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