I’m new and kinda lost on this forum haha so sorry if it’s in the wrong place. I am talking mostly about personality disorders, but others as well. If both partners have disorders and already have kids, but feel they cannot handle more, is it possible for permanent birth control to not be a sin or is it still completely up to God and only family planning should be used? Also taking in mind that the disorders can affect the accuracy of family planning to the point of it being taken from 90-whatever it is to like 45% likely to work.
Artificial birth control cannot be used if the intention is to not have children. Yes it is a sin to do so. I am not certain about your statement that it can effect the accuracy of family planning? Are you referring to natural birth control? If you are, will you please document your statement. I was told by a teacher that NFP didn’t work for a variety of reason which she could not substantiate.
I’m sorry, natural family planning is what I was talking about. If it’s done correctly it can be up to 99% effective. What I meant by lowering that percentage was things like poor memory due to a disorder, emotional outbreaks, stress, etc. that may effect her physically throwing off ovulation, etc. And mostly I was asking if you can get a dispensation or whatever? I was under the understanding that birth control is acceptable for certain health reasons. Would mental health and the good of the existing family and the life of children if they came be considered acceptable?
Compedium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
- When is it moral to regulate births?
The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
- What are immoral means of birth control?
Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
Contraception is intrinsically evil, that means it is never moral.
A person with a serious disorder may not be called to marriage at all. If called to marriage, then they would be called to the same chastity in marriage as everyone else. Contraception and sterilization are moral evils.
No one can give a dispensation to commit a grave evil.
You are mixing up two different things, it seems. Contraception is always wrong.
Taking a medication or having surgery for some other medical condition, that has the side effect of sterility, is not wrong.
So, a hysterectomy because the uterus is damaged is fine. A hysterectomy to prevent pregnancy is not fine.
There are more than one ways of knowing one’s place in the cycle, one of which involves a machine of some sort. It may be that investigating these very thoroughly and possibly using more than one would help the couple concerned, especially if both of them are on the same page.
ETA: Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than i will expand on this for you!
They could use a Clearblue Easy Fertility monitor. I have one and I like it. You use a test strip each morning and then place it in the little machine. It has a digital display and will show low fertility, high fertility, and peak fertility (ovulation). If trying to avoid pregnancy then don’t have marital relations until you count 4 days after the ovulation. Google Marquette method to get more info.
so how do you convince a sociopath when they both do NOT want more children and think it would be bad for them and they do natural family planning when they both know that she has a horrible memory and doesn’t always remember to take her extremely important medication? Knowing that the amount of stress involved is sometimes astronomical and can throw off her cycle. When things are working, they are ok, but how can it be ok to let these two have kids? And the two highest sex drives in this part of the world. Natural family planning would be a failure. If that’s ok to say I won’t have kids by doing NFP and we know that it is 99% effective, then what’s the difference of one that doesn’t prevent in an abortive method?
It would be best to talk to a priest.
I can not talk to a local priest. Would one of the priests on here take the time to help me? I don’t want to be a bother, and I understand they have more pressing business.
Wouldn’t being married to a sociopath be dangerous or at least crazy-making?
when they both do NOT want more children and think it would be bad for them and they do natural family planning when they both know that she has a horrible memory and doesn’t always remember to take her extremely important medication?
This and the fertility need to be addressed by things like putting up signs or timers on a smartphone or whatever to help remind her.
Knowing that the amount of stress involved is sometimes astronomical and can throw off her cycle.
This should be addressed by an NFP expert.
When things are working, they are ok, but how can it be ok to let these two have kids?
Who would be letting or not letting them have children?!?
And the two highest sex drives in this part of the world. Natural family planning would be a failure.
How are you involved in this? It seems like you are trying to regulate the lives of these two people in an unhealthy way, like pushing for them to commit mortal sin!
If that’s ok to say I won’t have kids by doing NFP and we know that it is 99% effective, then what’s the difference of one that doesn’t prevent in an abortive method?
The difference is that in one, the couples partakes of a good for the side effect while frustrating the end or proper goal of the act, and when using NFP, one foregoes the act altogether to keep the end from happening.
I was hoping to avoid getting into too much personal information. Especially considering the lack of knowledge on sociopathy (ASPD). Guess i’m doomed :shrug:
ASPD being, as Wikipedia puts it, “characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others.” That seems to be “dangerous or at least crazy-making,” doesn’t it? You are talking about a situation in which a woman with mental problems is living with someone who doesn’t recognize the rights of others–even a neuro-typical person would have trouble dealing with that.
Perhaps the wife would be better off in a different situation, but if she wants to stay, as an adult, she cannot be forced out. You may be watching a trainwreck unfold, but sometimes all we can do about a situation is to pray and accept the difficult outcomes.
I know a woman whose adult daughter has schizophrenia. She is raising two of her granddaughters, one of whom she didn’t know about for the first few years of her life and who now seems to be exhibiting signs of at least mental distress if not actual illness. She did me tion to me at one time that she is involved in a support group, and a support group of people dealing with these types of problems may be the best alternative for you.
But do keep praying…
there is a lot more to it than that and very little substantial information readily available on the internet. They are also individuals as well and therefore have variety on their personality, souls, and opinions. This sociopath in particular happens to believe in the Catholic faith and considers long term consequences. He’s extremely intelligent and complicated. The only danger with him is mentally and with personal sinning. (There is also a difference between sociopaths and psychopaths.) Judge not. He deserves love as much as anyone. And no I am not trying to convince them to use contraception and sin. But my real confusion is if Catholics are allowed to practice nfp that is 99% accurate done correctly, then what is the difference? It’s still a conscious decision to prevent conception. I get that one is not having sex, but the intent behind it…I don’t see a difference in morality. Particularly if it’s one that is not of an abortive nature.
Perhaps you do not see the difference because of your education on the matter or your education on the “why” of our faith and it’s “rules” Can you at least acknowledge that while you may not see the difference, the Church in Her infinite wisdom does, and that we should trust and obey God and His Church?
Everyone gets God’s love to the extent they accept it, and everyone deserves Christian love from others. However, this does not mean that everyone “deserves” romantic love–that is how we got into the whole same-sex “marriage” thing.
I am sorry, my original idea of what was happening was the result of misunderstanding your second post. Your description of the husband here gives me a different idea of what is happening. Perhaps he could help his wife keep track of the fertility? Then he would also be aware of what is happening with her and thus not inadvertantly pressure her.
And no I am not trying to convince them to use contraception and sin. But my real confusion is if Catholics are allowed to practice nfp that is 99% accurate done correctly, then what is the difference? It’s still a conscious decision to prevent conception. I get that one is not having sex, but the intent behind it…I don’t see a difference in morality. Particularly if it’s one that is not of an abortive nature.
In other words, the actual issue you are asking about is this? And the rest is just the situation in which the question came up for you? Or do you want help with the situation as well, and this question is the side-effect of that? (I am confused…)
Anyway, the difference morally is that in one case, the people abstain from having sex when they might conceive. They feel their need to refrain from children at that time is so great that they are willing to sacrifice the marital act to keep from conceiving.
In the case of using artificial contraception, they are committing the act, taking advantage of the act, while doing something to prevent the end of the act.
There is a difference between having sex and not having sex.
It is not your place to “let” them have children or not have children.
If the Church determines they can enter into a valid marriage, then it is their decision regarding timing and spacing of children. If the Church determines they are incapable of entering a valid marriage, they will not be permitted to marry.
They have already been married by the Church. These issues were not known at the time. And if they decide to “space” the timing of children to never? I suppose I have my answer, though I may not like it thanks for all responses.
They can space their children to “never,” just as a couple who discovered a serious condition wrt pregnancy in the wife after they married might or if one became incapacitated. That is not a problem from the moral standpoint.