Can we discuss Judaism without the politics?


I accept all you wrote, except that the only apostles I accept as historical figures are Peter, James, and John. And Paul, but he was not one of the original twelve. Paul mentions Peter, James, and John in his letters, but none of the others. I believe Jesus and his followers were more akin to one of the mystery cults that were around during that time. There were other crucified men who claimed to be the messiah or the Son or G-d. I believe Jesus’s cult flourished for several reasons when the others did not, but I certainly don’t believe it was because he was G-d.


Oh, I agree! I have relatives I never met who died in the Holocaust. I might not have been born had my family not escaped to England, then to Brazil. (Why Brazil, I do not really know.)


I did not flag the posts here because I saw Rabbi wanted to reply and then Zealot was somewhat responding to criticism and left, and also that maybe it feeds the paranoia to have every Holocaust-denying post being deleted from the forum.
But if the subjects come back again you can flag and/or report them to the moderators and they will be deleted. However if a thread has too many flags even if not by the fault of the original poster it may get temporarily locked.


There is a quite large Jewish community in Brazil which may have influenced their decision.


Thank you! :slight_smile: I’ve been to Brazil many times, but I. myself, was born in Los Angeles.


Germany was not a center of Torah learning or Kabbalah scholarship, by ANY means, from probably 100 years before the Holocaust. Major yeshivas and scholars were located in what is present-day Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Russia - Eastern Europe. I’m not saying there weren’t scholars in Germany, but the majority of Jews were assimilated to some extent.


Is it safe for me to assume you’re an Orthodox Jew?


And my personal favorite,


In all my time here, I’ve never said directly, I’ve always used terms like ‘rather observant’.

Why? I’ve always thought it better to avoid implied criticism of other Jews.


So you’re Reform?


Rabbi, do the Jewish people “see” Jesus as just a holy man. A good Jewish holy man. I worked with someone who was Catholic and converted to Judaism and that is what she told me.


The posted information was on Poland, Liblin. Lublin was sometimes called the Jewish Oxford and the Polish Jerusalem because of its tradition of learning going back centuries. Now read the other article on Germany - like you said “100 years before the Holocaust”:

The greatest Jewish teachers and rabbis flocked to the Rhine. Their teachings, dialogues, decisions and influence propelled Mainz and neighboring towns along the Rhine into world-wide prominence. Their fame spread, rivaling that of other post-Diaspora cities such as Baghdad. Western European – Ashkenazic or Germanic – Judaism became centered in Mainz, breaking free of the Babylonian traditions. A Yeshiva was founded in the 10th century by Gershom ben Judah.[3]


References: (and noting, so that if anyone should ask me - I’ll know):

Orthodox Judaism: Yeshiva: Kabbalistic studies, though increasingly popular, never became part of the formal Ashkenazi studies, as they did in Italy and in the Levant.
The Holocaust brought the yeshivot of Eastern and Central Europe to an end, but in a number of Western countries which had no yeshivot or where yeshivot had ceased to exist a number of large ones were established. From the mid-20th century the greatest number of yeshivot, and the most important of them, was centered in Israel and in the United States, but they were also found in many other Western countries (e.g., inGateshead , England). The Chabad movement was especially active in this direction, establishing yeshivot in France, Australia, and North Africa.

Germany Virtual Jewish History Tour : The most well-known example of this latter phenomena was the friendship of Moses Mendelsohn (1729-1786) and G.E. Lessing in Berlin. However, it was an atypical example, for while Mendelson remained scrupulously observant, most maskilim did not, which seriously eroded Jewish unity in Germany.

Jews Around the Globe Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews The Jewish world is more ethnically and racially diverse than many people realize. By Rabbi Rachel M. Solomin : The Jewish ethnic identity most readily recognized by North Americans — the culture of matzah balls, black-hatted Hasidim, and Yiddish — originated in medieval Germany. Although strictly speaking, “Ashkenazim” refers to Jews of Germany, the term has come to refer more broadly to Jews from Central and Eastern Europe. Jews first reached the interior of Europe by following trade routes along waterways during the eighth and ninth centuries.


You right about having different opinions. However, within the group discussions and many years ago, and from what I’ve read, there wasn’t an issue with the start of Christ’s ministry. The problems started toward the end and how it was written. Most had believed that the end of his ministry had been rewritten or that there was a change in the style on how it was written. Comparing end of the ministry to the start, again, this is remembering years back.

However, the group chose the Gospel of John and Mark. Later, I tried to read up on the subject and the comparison of the two gospels. Also, understandable that another member would love to view the conversation and I would love to send it but it is a conversation that took place within the group (Dwelling Place - Hasidic and also, on a Theology web site). Pulling records isn’t easy nor was finding the information on a conversation on Yeshivas - easy.

Just so that you know, I did tell this forum webber that the Polish Jewry had a high level on the education of the Talmud and after that comment a nice German Jew told me better…so I’ll leave it right at the door with that thought. So I brought the conversation to this forum…It was a nice loooong lecture…remember I’m Czech! Meltzer are you reading this post - regarding the info on the Yeshivas???


A couple of thoughts on the two Gospel books mentioned and the reasoning - noting from others sources:

“In this sense it must be said that Mark can not be characterised by anti-Judaism. Rather, Mark appears to have the qualities of a sectarian group, seeking to establish a new interpretation of Torah.”

and perhaps the reason for the Gospel of John:

The Oldest Witness of the New Testament

The oldest known and recognized witness of the New Testament is a papyri-fragment found in Egypt. This fragment was deciphered by the English scholar C. H. Roberts in 1934. He discovered that the fragment bore the Greek text of John 18:31-33 in the front and John 18:37-38 on the back. A more precise determination of the age of this fragment resulted in its time of origin at around 125 to 130 AD. If John’s Gospel existed in Egypt at that time already then the original must have been written some time earlier. The presumption that John’s Gospel must have been composed no later than 100 AD is strongly confirmed by this extraordinary fragment. - This papyrus is kept in Manchester at the John Ryland’s Library and bears the term P52. [1]
The Text of John 7:53 ; John 8:1-11

Together with Mark 16:9-20 these verses are the only the New Testament verses whose origins are doubted by critical text research. These twelve verses are missing in the oldest known Greek manuscripts as well as in some old translations. Hieronymus however testifies that these verses were included in many Greek and Latin manuscripts. (Hieronymus lived from 345 - 419). Augustine (354 -430) stated that this paragraph has been taken out of the text by men of little faith or enemies of the true faith."


Germany, including towns like Mainz and Worms, were major centers of Torah scholarship in Medieval times. By the Renaissance, to greatly oversimplify, these centers had been moving to Eastern Europe. Throughout the 18th-19th c. German Jews became assimilated more and more.

Sorry, but if s/he was talking about Germany in the decades prior to WWII, s/he was simply wrong. Places like Lublin (Poland), Slabodka (Lithuania), Volozhin and Mir (Belarus) were the most elite Yeshivas in all of Europe.


You’re being silly. If she doesn’t want to be labeled, don’t label her.


There as many different views on Jesus as there are Jewish communities. I’m a Conservative Jew, but even Conservative Jews differ from community to community. I think most Jews agree that Jesus did exist. I know I do, though I’ve met a few who do not. Others have the greatest respect for him as a rabbi, while others think he was the deluded leader of a “mystery cult.”

There’s no one answer to that question. Most Jews I know say it doesn’t matter if he existed or not or what he was. He’s not a part of our faith. Most Jews don’t know that much about him, just as most Catholics would not know how to put on tefillin. (Or even know what it is and represents.)


The best ones were in Eastern Europe, western Russia, as you’ve stated:


Understood. There is a liitle pride in every community and like one of the article (that I posted) wrote, those past memories of how things were can not be brought back or restructed. The people in those times past made the events historial not the buildings.

You should have seen the community in our generation. The movement or circulation among ethic groups was incredible. You can not replace the people or the history.

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