Can we discuss Judaism without the politics?


Moravia (Brno) - Czechoslovakia and Bohemia are my grand parents nationality. When I was younger they use to speak in Czech or Bohemian at the breakfast table but then, when I would walk into the kitchen they would speak in English.

Early in the morning my grandmother would make kolaches and at noon they would all be gone. It’s a good thing my grandmother hide the rest of the kolaches for grandfather. So, we were very blessed to have our grandparents and grandfather.


Err, no, but I’ve found that Christian fora are not the place for internecine wrangling, Christians are quite adept enough at that themselves.


Thank you Moses613.


You need to bear in mind the nature of the NT in the eyes of the people involved, to Christians it is scripture and reportage, to us it is neither, it’s literature. In that case, what we know of him lies in the area of ‘literary criticism’.

So, the character of Jesus becomes one of a peripatetic teacher discussing traditional themes and the question is whether the character portrayed is a ‘holy man’.

I expect most of us aren’t really that bothered but tend to be diplomatic.


Anybody read Bernard Wasserstein’s ‘On The Eve’ about the European Jewish world just prior to the War?


My ancestors were German Jews who immigrated from the Caucasus Mountain region. Their descendants then went to England, and finally to Brazil. Study has always been very important in my family, but my grandmother and mother were first rate cooks and bakers, too. I inherited the “study gene.” I have several bookcases filled with books of commentaries, history, the Hebrew language, etc.


I haven’t read that @Kaninchen, but I loved A History of Judaism by Goodman, and I’m always reading Commentary on the Torah by Richard Elliott. I find that book so thought-provoking.


I found it interesting because it changed my understanding of a civilisation already in decline for its own reasons (which included reaction to hostile environments, obviously, but that wasn’t the whole picture).

I mentioned it because of the discussion of Eastern Europe.


Which I think is profoundly ignorant on the part of Jews. To respect a man who claimed to be the Messiah as a good Rabbi is tantamount to affirming his claim to be the Messiah. I would think such claims demand a thorough investigation, leading to a conclusion that either wholly embraces or wholly rejects the man’s claims.


You are approaching it from the point of view of it been historical record. Kaninchen is approaching it from the point of view of it being pious literature, thus as she points out the question from her point of views becomes whether characters presented in a work of literature are moral or not. Other conclusions are possible besides the two you present for non-Christians and we should be aware of that as Christians.


I smiled. A guten chodesh!


I looked up the area on your ancestry - Caucasus Mountain region, Mountain Jews or Caucasus Jews. You have a very interesting background! How long did it take you to trace it? I can imagine the stories that you heard from your grandparents considering the routes? And is your background Sephardi? Are you in the States? I hope you’ll share a little more of the background, if its not asking to much?

Some of the traditions of my grandfather carried over to my grandmother. Many of the traditions (cultural traditions - a mixture) that became embedded but you would never suspect it unless you asked questions. I remember how both me and my cousin talked and listened at length to both my great grandfather and grandmother about the background. With Sephardi culture there’s a dual background across the board from traditions, cultural background…and to foods.

When we think of the Jewish culture and religion, you think of Israel which isn’t necessarily true, anymore. We know of the European Jewry but also, there is the Jewry from North and South American to North and South Africa but all listing there authenticity, yet still holding toward Judaism and the Torah.


St. Simon of Trent was still canonized though


One can wholly reject his claims and still respect him a misled child or G-d. Are we not to respect ALL of G-d’s creation, even if we don’t approve of it? I may be wrong, but I think we are. I respect an autistic child even if that child is screaming in a movie theater and causing me to enjoy the movie less than if the child were not present. He or she is a child of G-d, a part of G-d’s creation.

I think Yeshua was misled. How, I don’t know, and I really don’t concern myself with how. He didn’t seem to have an uncharitable bone in his body, and for that, I do admire him. But does that mean I believe he’s the messiah? No, I don’t.


I know my family originally came from Azerbaijan. Some immigrated to an ancient town near the German-Swiss border called Waldshut, and changed their name to Herzog. Later, when they immigrated to England, they anglicized Herzog to Hartsough, though once they reached Brazil, they went back to Herzog. They have always considered themselves Ashkenazi. I was actually born in Los Angeles.

I really don’t know much at all about my family before they got to Germany, but I would like to learn more some day soon. Sad how our origins can so often be shrouded in mystery. We lose a part of our identity when that happens.


Richard Carrier has written a book showing why the marginalized Jews of the first century were primed and ready to accept and believe in a crucified and risen messiah, even though Jewish teaching, as you know, has always been that the messiah will not be divine, and he certainly won’t be crucified!

I found Carrier’s book thought-provoking, though of course, the Catholics I know found it scandalous. How could they not, really when Christianity is founded on a resurrected messiah?


So what needs to be explained, then, is why Jesus was crucified at the instigation of the Sanhedrin? What precisely did he do that merited execution in the eyes of the Jewish Council? The charge was blasphemy. If he didn’t claim to be G-d then how did the Council settle on blasphemy as the charge that merited his execution?

Can you name the other men who were crucified merely for claiming to be the Messiah? Certainly, that would have been an issue for the Romans who would have viewed a claim to kingship by a Jew as sedition since kings were selected only by the Romans in the Empire. But if these other men merely claimed Messiahship, that wouldn’t be sufficient for the Sanhedrin to recommend crucifixion, would it? I mean why would the Jews want their own promised Messiah to be killed by the Romans?

No, it seems that Jesus raised the ire of the Jews alone by claiming to be G-d. Pilate “found no charge” was ready to release him because Jesus made no seditious claim – he said his kingdom was not of this world, so it wasn’t in direct competition with the Roman Empire.


For people who do not see the NT as either scripture or reportage, this is a ‘literary criticism’ question, like asking about a sequence of events in Shakespeare’s Hamlet.


I suppose people are free to imagine whatever they wish to imagine, but that doesn’t change the evidence from history. That Jesus existed and was crucified by Rome at the instigation of the Sanhedrin is about as verifiable as anything in history, so to simply assert an unfounded historical sentiment as a premise in a reply is an option, although one not deserving of much serious consideration.

Your opinion is hereby noted, but it wasn’t your opinion that was sought, so we won’t regard it as “either scripture or reportage” nor of any historical merit.


Yes, you can find their names here:

I realize you are only defending your faith, but we are in the non-Catholic area of the forum, and the thread was started to discuss Judaism without arguing. I don’t think any of us are attacking the Catholic faith or trying to convert you to our beliefs.

I apologize if the link offends anyone, but we’re in the “Non-Catholic Religions” sub-forum. I would never put the link in any other sub-forum here.

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