Can we discuss Judaism without the politics?


They claim the crematoriums were like what we have today in the states, but they forget that these things were made more military purposes, and not mere disposal items, that’s how the Nazis could get rid of so many bodies so fast.


I haven’t had room for more books since around 20 years ago. Doesn’t stop me. I make bigger piles, rent more storage spaces, and wish I wasn’t too old to build the library addition I planned for 40 years.

On my most often posted on subject, I insist on a division into strictly historical and more obviously contentious sectors. I cover history.

And on previous threads on this subject, I went and looked. You were there.


Like I said, you deny our credibility when you say less than a million died. This in itself is denial of the truth, therefore, you’re wrong.


Was this claim part of one of the deleted posts?


I can’t buy any more guitars which are my obsession, I have been told firmly by the powers that be that ‘one in, one out’ is the new rule. I am therefore allowed a maximum of six and two amplifiers and some other bits of electronics to go with them. Shameful oppression.


I don’t deny or affirm this. If this is the number the experts agree as the lowest possible estimate then I will have to defer to them. I was under the impression far more than a million died.


The powers that be in my house vies with me to buy the most books. I first met her in a library, 52 years ago.

Best thing I ever took out of a library.


Art supplies is my missus obsession, easels, paint brushes, canvasses, drawing pads etc. She keeps saying all these guitars are similar (which is of course heresy) but then bought another easel and more pastels this morning.


Let’s cut to the chase, stop the fiddle-faddle (as one black superhero of note would say), the Holocaust reductionism will eventually start going on about technical difficulties, very likely a certain gentleman called Leuchter’s name will pop up in the mix. Talk about milking grief, blah blah blah will go on and endless comments of a ‘I’m not really saying that but what if it were the case?’ will be flung around. This is not my first rodeo with Holocaust deniers or minimizers.


No expert said anything of that nature, I got that notion from you. About 6 million died. That’s the estimate.


What about this, you name us a problem with the Shoah, like why you think less died, then we have something tangible to work with.


I really wanted to stop posting in this thread and on this topic, so why do you keep claiming I said things I didn’t? I have never discussed numbers. I have never doubted said numbers to be true. I am skeptical of any numbers as a default position (I am skeptical of everything as a default position), but since the overwhelming majority of experts and historians seem to agree within a specific range of numbers (~six million being the one I hear most often) I will defer to them as regards that topic.

I don’t think less died. I’m really not concerned with the historicity of the holocaust beyond mild skepticism of some of the wilder claims and also a mild distaste for most flat-out deniers. I made one small point, which was, in hindsight, unwise, at it was taken as denial and mitigation, when in reality it was more a point on the freedom of speech than anything else. If you’ll stop putting words and concepts in my mouth then I’ll stop defending myself and you can have your thread back. Deal?


@Zealot, one last question, okay?

I agree, there’s no point to free speech if you don’t have the right to express it.

I’d just like to know a specific detail you’re skeptical about. Then I’ll let you off and we can all part ways and not have anyone get ugly (I’m not picking on you here, we all can get ugly). Your deal is accepted. Just please let me know which part you’re unsure of, you don’t even have to stick around to see the refutation. I just want to know. Thank you.


I’m skeptical about the idea of mustache-twirling Nazi’s driving tanks over prisoners, some claims I hear about Dr. Mengele (I have the same skepticism for some claims about Japanese Unit 731), the idea that genocide of the “undesirables” was the original goal and intent, and actually the idea that gassing was the main cause of death at all (from what I understand even the historians don’t claim this, they suggest firing squad, starvation, disease, and other causes were the main causes of death, but the general public seems to think they were all gassed).

I’m not saying I flat-out disbelieve any of these things, but that I am skeptical of them.


Please digest this site very carefully and see if it answers any skepticism. If not, then you’re free to go as you please, for you’ve weighed the evidence. That’s fair, right? Good luck on your journey. Either way, may HaShem show you the truth:


The above was for the eyes of @Zealot


The general public needs more education. Shooting/ carbon monoxide poisoning both preceded the gas chambers, which were built as a more straight-forward, efficient solution to the problem, and easier on the Army/SS troops doing the deeds. Other methods continued in use by the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern front. And deaths did come from use of the prisoners as slave labor, disease and etc, in the concentration camps, as opposed to the extermination camps. The wiki entry on Einzatzgruppen is useful for the distinction. But gassing, in the extermination camps, was the primary method, from 1942.

Running folks over with tanks I’ve not heard of, save perhaps as isolated incidents. Inefficient, at the least. And the Nazis strove for efficiency.

As to Unit 731, what do you find unconvincing, say as related in Barrenblatt’s PLAGUE UPON HUMANITY or Harris’ FACTORIES OF DEATH, two books that come to hand, on the shelves. Unlike the Holocaust books, which are all packed.


It perhaps shows how the era is receding and becoming purely historical as living witnesses die of. The point about the Einsatzgruppen you raise I was aware of as a young boy when of all things an old Marvel comic had Magneto point out this was the original way of killing people by the Nazis but that it proved inefficient.

The reality is most of the veterans from WW2 are dead now, those still alive are into their late 80’s or early to mid 90’s so another 10 to 15 years tops and their is going to be no-one from the era alive. Which is rather worrying as the evil that men do most certainly lives after them and as the direct witnesses die of a sort of indifference to this era or token interest for yearly commerations is likely to become more then norm.



Guess we’re gonna need books.


Hi Rabbi…I’m probably not the most knowledgeable person to talk about oral tradition in the Catholic Church…but here is a U Tube video that can explain it better…shalom

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