Can't view as authentic, is it ok to view as false?


#1

Sorry to throw another Medjugorje question into the pot.

I need clarification on the Vatican statements on Medjugorje. I know they do not want people organizing on the basis of authenticity, or even going alone if it is because they believe it to be authentic. However, what is the church’s position with regards to those Catholics who do not believe in this or even believe it to be a hoax or diabolical in nature?

Lets say that my official position is that nothing of divine supernatural origin is happening at Medjugorje. Is this a problem? It is basically aligned with position of the Local Ordinary of Mostar. Yet in some circles I am being told that I am wrongly condemning Medjugorje with my position. How can this be?

Here is a thread I generated on the subject with my own testimonial of how I shifted as a result of the blatant disobedience, disregard for, and defamation of the Local Ordinary on the part of the “seers” and several Franciscans which worked closely with them.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=59439

I feel more strongly than ever that obedience is a gaunlet through which a diabolical spirit cannot pass, yet one of divine origin can. It is this that I base my opinion that there is nothing of divine supernatural origin.

Am I aligned or misaligned with what I can feel and say about Medjugorje?


#2

I don’t particularly follow Medjugorje, but your analysis sounds to me as reasonable and not against church doctrine, especially if it is in agreement with the local bishop of Mostar.


#3

Stay close to the Church follow the Bishop.


#4

[quote=Lux_et_veritas]Am I aligned or misaligned with what I can feel and say about Medjugorje?
[/quote]

No functionary of the Magesterium has ever endorsed Medjugorje in ANY way. Every single official statement on Medjugorje has been designed to diminish or curtail any recognition of it. A faithful Cathoic is FULLY justified in discounting any divine activity in these events (and it’s hard for me to understand how any faithful Cahtolic could think otherwise).

Some people refuse to believe the Magesteruim has condemned the events at Medjugorje. They say, “the Pope has not ruled on the matter.” These people do NOT understand what the Magesterium is or how She works. The Magesteruim is NOT the Pope. The Magesterium HAS HAS HAS utterly condemned Medjugorje. The Pope will NEVER dirty his hands with this matter.


#5

It would be nice to visit many Holy places, but to get to those we have to spend a fortune.

I wanted so much to believe in Medjugorje, but over 30,000 messages ? well it’s got redicilous, so like I said in your other thread, I don’t read them anymore.

There’s nothing new, except for disobedience, and one message that said"one religion is as good as another" really threw a spanner in the works.

So no more Medjugorje for me, if the Church says it’s genuine, oh well I have to accept, but I don’t think I’ll ever get to Medjugorje, and right now I don’t desire to.

We have Tabernacles all over the world, and we don’t have to spend a fortune to get there.

So I’ll stick to the poor man’s Shrine, “The Holy Tabernacle”.


#6

[quote=STIOFÁN]So I’ll stick to the poor man’s Shrine, “The Holy Tabernacle”.
[/quote]

[/font]

What a lovely description, and what a shrine! Laced with the greatest of treasures. Now I know why it is that most of the Saints have come from poverty. :wink:


#7

The Catholic Church does not force anyone to believe apparitions and private revelations. The last public revelations ended with the apostles, so anything now is private.

matt


#8

[quote=STIOFÁN]… So no more Medjugorje for me, if the Church says it’s genuine, oh well I have to accept…
[/quote]

Well, not really. You would simply be free to accept (without reservation) *if you wished. * You would also be free to utterly reject it if you wished (just as you may do for Loures or Fatima).

But, don’t worry - the Church will NEVER say it’s genuine. The Magesterium has condemned it at every opportunity without exception.


#9

[quote=DavidFilmer]But, don’t worry - the Church will NEVER say it’s genuine. The Magesterium has condemned it at every opportunity without exception.
[/quote]

I believe the facts are:
The local bishop has stated that there is no proof that anything of a supernatural nature is taking place at Medjugorje. “No proof” is not the same as a condemnation. Maybe the apparitions are real and maybe they are not–there just is not any proof at this time one way or the other. If something happened there in the future that appeared to be supernatural, then the bishop has the freedom to reconsider the evidence and issue an updated statement. * He has not issued an outright condemnation as of yet.*

As for the Magesterium…no comment of any kind–either for or against–has ever been made by Rome. There have been stories that John Paul was favorable toward Medjugorje, but these are all supposed quotes from third-hand parties. I don’t know what Ratzinger’s opinion was prior to his election to the papacy.


#10

[quote=WhatMeWorry]I believe the facts are:
The local bishop has stated that there is no proof that anything of a supernatural nature is taking place at Medjugorje. “No proof” is not the same as a condemnation. Maybe the apparitions are real and maybe they are not–there just is not any proof at this time one way or the other. If something happened there in the future that appeared to be supernatural, then the bishop has the freedom to reconsider the evidence and issue an updated statement. He has not issued an outright condemnation as of yet.

As for the Magesterium…no comment of any kind–either for or against–has ever been made by Rome. There have been stories that John Paul was favorable toward Medjugorje, but these are all supposed quotes from third-hand parties. I don’t know what Ratzinger’s opinion was prior to his election to the papacy.
[/quote]

The Magisterium has commented on the false apparitions at Medjugorje when the Bishop Zanic issued his letter in 1987. The Magisterium is the pope and the bishops in union with him. Since Bishop Zanic exercised his authority as Bishop of Mostar, the Magisterium has made a comment and it is against the apparitions.


Here is part of Bishop Zanic’s letter. I include the link to the entire letter.


In this diocese, by divine decree, I am the shepherd, teacher of faith, and judge in the matters of faith. Since Medjugorje’s events have created tension and division within the Church (some believe in it, some do not), and have evaded Church control, since the recommendations and decisions of the said authorities such as the Commission, the Congregation, and the Bishops’ Conference have been ineffective, I, the Ordinary of Mostar, responsible before God for the discipline in the diocese, repeat and sanction former decisions of the ecclesiastical authorities. I do forbid the priests who organize pilgrimages or come here ascribing a supernatural character to these events, to celebrate Mass in the territory of my diocese, and this until the Commission of the Bishops’ Conference ends its inquiry.


Thank you, Madonna, because with your long silence of six years you have demonstrated that you have not spoken here, nor appeared, nor given any message or secret nor promised a special sign. Blessed Virgin, Mother of Christ and of us, intercede for peace in this restless region of the Church, in the diocese of Mostar, intercede especially for this place, for this parish, where innumerable times your blessed name was mentioned in words which were not yours. Make them stop fabricating messages in your name.
198.62.75.1/www1/apparitions/http:/pr00045.htm

Forbidding priests to celebrate Mass sounds pretty close to a condemnation. Bishop Zanic also wrote a letter to Fr. Pervan in 1985, which is also included in the above link.

However, several times through letters, the Bishop’s Office expressed its desire, and even demanded, that the propaganda stop because of the disobedience of the pastoral personnel and the “visionaries.” This was a futile attempt.

Now, without any delay, after all this, I demand from you that you remove the “visionaries” from public display and put an end to their “visions” in the parish church.


The devotions that grew out of the “apparitions” and their messages must be eliminated, sales of souvenirs and printed material which propagate the “apparitions” must also stop. The faithful can go to the sacrament of reconciliation and attend Mass. I do not allow the other priests, especially Fathers Jozo Zovko, Tomislav Vlasic and Ljudevit Rupcic, to celebrate Mass for the faithful or to preach. The “visionaries” must give you whatever they wrote, especially what pertains to the so called “Biography of the Madonna.” No excuse that that’s a secret can justify them from not handing over that material to you. Since there was so much public talk about their Diaries and their other writings, and since all this had a great influence on the events of Medjugorje, thus all these documents and [written]) materials fall under the supervision of the Ordinary and become subject to the investigation of the phenomenon of Medjugorje.

It is clear from Bishop Zanic that these apparitions are false. Bishop Zanic’s successor, Bishop Peric, has affirmed Bishop Zanic’s findings. The apparitions at Medjugorje are clearly a hoax and are not to be believed according to the Magisterium.


#11

There are, from my knowledge, two pronouncements that the local ordinary can make regarding ‘Apparitions’ if they are in doubt.

  1. Happenings are found to be non constat de supernaturalitate [the **supernaturality is not proven]

  2. Happenings are found to be constat de non supernaturalitate [the **non-supernaturality **is proven]

**BOTH have been expressed by the local ordinary of the Mostar diocese in the following communication:Through the Statement by Bishop Peric of October 2, 1997:
"4. On the basis of the serious study of the case…on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the ‘Madonna’, on the usual repetition of ‘messages’…my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate [the supernaturality is not proven] but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje."

Why is this not enough? The diocesan Bishop is, in his own right, an authentic successor to the apostles, and not a mere vicar or delegate of the Pope.


#12

Hello

I cannot say that it is false either, the five stones to defeat evil, is the truth for conversion of poor sinners

Five stones are Attending Mass on Sunday
Praying the Rosary
Monthly Confessions
Fasting
Reading the Bible

How can this be a contradictory to the teachings of our faith?

Having been there myself in 2003 and in Lourdes in 2004, I do not see much differences. The is a element of peace in both places.

The amount of countries and priests that were attending Medjugorje at that time tells me that they are searching.

The Catholic Church has not condemn it but neither approve it.
Like Garanbandal.

But the messages throughout the last two hundreds years are clear to me, conversion and praying of poor sinners.

Simple message, the church as you know in America and Western Europe in places is not greatly in attendance.

Lapse Catholic is great in England, what percent I cannot tell you.

God Bless
Saint Andrew.


#13

I’m always open to the message of Lourdes,Fatima,Medjugorje.
However,about 13/14 years ago i was down in the dumps and our curate gave me a videotape about Medjugorje.Around a year later,
the priest asked our Cardinal/Archbishop Thomas Winning to release him from his priestly duties.The last i heard,my former curate was in the United States.The Medjugorje message didn’t seem to get through to him.


#14

[quote=DavidFilmer]Well, not really. You would simply be free to accept (without reservation) if you wished. You would also be free to utterly reject it if you wished (just as you may do for Loures or Fatima).

[/quote]

Yes correct, as long as I have the Mass and Jesus in the Tabernacle that’s all I need.

Like I said in another thread, theyr’e like sign posts on my journey through life.

I’m just wondering when like Wako Texas, or some other place when people rush to see the sign and not a sign in sight.

Actually my local priest, only became a priest after going to Medjugorje, strange indeed, seems like God can turn the tables on satan like in the Temple, and draw good out of bad.

Can a God that can create something out of nothing, not do that ?

All smacks of beam me up scotty, and when scotty doesn’t beam them up, what a fall !!! —what damage will that cause.


#15

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