CARAVAN heading to The U.S.A ( POLL )


#426

I think they first need to make Honduras great once before they can start making it great again.


#427

This is not complete truth and goes to show you don’t know many (any?) “poor people living in shacks,” do you?

I have an entire side of my family living in rural Mexico. They do not have internet in their home, which is adobe, dirt floor, palm roof, no running water, electricity comes and goes, cool over a fire, etc. They have access to internet though. We email pictures and videos all the time! They can go into town and use the internet anytime they want. They also have cell phones, and many of the younger people in their village have smart phones. When they get the time, the younger people will skype and sometimes will allow others to use their phones to do that too. My family in Bolivia is in the city so access is even easier. It also isn’t terribly hard in other countries to find people with enough English to help with things, and translation services available online too.

Have you actually gone to these areas of “poor people living in shacks” or do you simply just repeat information you hear from others? Even the homeless in Mexico City Can get access to computers easier than my in laws, but my in laws can easily as well. Like I said, we email a few times each month. They just told us last night that an Internet cafe is opening in the town next to theirs and the high school in their town already has computers. It doesn’t get much more remote than where they live. I can provide a link to YouTube videos from their town if anyone is interested. They are literally dirt floor poor.

I honestly believe you have a good heart and have a love for the poor. But I think you are misinformed and acting on emotion rather than with a thought out plan. It doesn’t do any good to react emotionally. I seriously am not looking to shame you or even argue with you, but I want you to understand that organizing caravans harms more than it helps. We need to do better for everyone than subject them to thousands of miles of walking, carrying their belongings, children, elderly, disabled. We can’t encourage them to journey through cartel country and risk falling from trucks, trains, buses. We can’t make them target for crooked law enforcement and even legitimate law enforcement, drug smugglers, sex traffickers, and each other (reports of crimes among those on the caravan can be found easily in the news). We need real immigration reform HERE in order to help them to travel safely on real transportation start to finish. We also need to help empower them to change their own countries and provide the help and support needed to make that come true. God knows I want to have my sister in law came to the US, but we haven’t been able to get her a visa. My husband made that trip without one. No way we want his sister to make it. Without reform, she will never be able to come. I want reform more than most. I miss her a lot. She’s my best friend, not just my husbands sister. I love her too much to bring her on a caravan or with a coyote. It’s not safe


#428

Yes, I do. I’m a social worker and have traveled quite extensively. Must you make this personal?

I just linked you to data indicating that just barely over 30% of people in Honduras have an Internet connection. An entire 65% of Mexicans do, so I’m not at all surprised that your relatives have access, too.

Would you encourage them to stay behind and get slain? This issue is more complex than I think you’re willing to acknowledge. These are real human beings taking very real risks either way.

What should impoverished, unarmed citizens do to change an extremely corrupt and very much armed government enmeshed with corrupt and very much armed gangs? And how do you propose they stay alive in the process?

And precisely what kind of “empowerment” are you talking about? Financial? Or just sending them back and telling them to figure it out somehow?

I’ll say a prayer for your sister and your family situation. It would break my heart to have that kind of separation from my family. I hope that she’s in a safer situation than those Hondurans are.

Please, please, please realize that these Hondurans are in danger if they stay, and they’re in danger if they leave. It’s a horrible choice to have to make, and I don’t think any of them are making it lightly.

As a mother myself, I cannot fathom what I’d so in that situation to keep my sweet babies safe! So I’m certainly in no position to pass judgment on them!

Here’s a crazy thought: Is anybody - ANYBODY - who has posted here praying for these Hondurans?


#429

Yea, kinda my point, too. It’s easy to repeat rhetoric without stopping to think about it.


#430

Personally, I don’t think he’s merely spewing rhetoric. He makes a lot of good points. People should try to take back their own countries.


#431

You’re speaking from a position of privilege.

Here’s what happens to people who try to “take Honduras back.” https://www.cejil.org/es/sociedad-civil-denuncia-cidh-situacion-violencia-honduras

Scroll down to the fourth paragraph and, unless you speak Spanish, paste it into your favorite translator.

Editing to add another source in English. https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/03/20/activists-go-underground-un-reports-excessive-force-honduras

No wonder they’re leaving.


#432

Connection and access are very different things. But yes, I see whatbyou are saying.

I know they are real human beings and yes, it breaks my heart. There are no easy answers. I have a feeling we are closer to agreement than we are in opposition. I realize very well how complex this is.

Sending them back is not the answer without support, but just financial won’t cut it either. Reforming the US immigration system to help them safely to get here, helping them obtain the education and motivation is immportant. Honduras is a sovereign nation, so physically going with protection forces isn’t the answer unless they ask for it.

Thank you for the prayers. My in laws live in disputed cartel territory. It is ugly. Very ugly. They are 20 hours south of Brownsville so traveling there is dangerous. Even if we fly, there is at least 6 hours drive/bus through cartel territory. They’ve had priests kidnapped and killed. Politicians and journalists killed. Many people just disappear. Mass graves found. Even with all that, there are safe pockets.

And yes I pray for immigrants every day. Not just the ones from Honduras. I pray for peace and safety. My husband joined the US Army after we rectified his immigration status. I always prayed he would be out of a job. Most Army wives do. Peace in the world and the safety of all people means our husbands don’t work, and we are just fine with that.


#433

You know the reason my husband and so many other immigrants join the military? It is because they want to give back. Not just to this country, but to their home country as well. They send money home, they visit and mentor people in their home countries. They try to work towards a time that there is no need to migrate. And all the immigrates I know agree that if we don’t help rectify situations and instead just welcome everyone from everywhere, all that will happen is the problems they are running from will be brought with them. The US won’t be a safe haven anymore. How could we do any good for anyone if we are in the same situation?


#434

Maybe they can ask for help from the people who are organizing the caravan? Because there is no way in hell they organized themselves.

Also, it’s amusing to see people throw around the p word as of that stops people in their tracks.


#435

I think you’re right. :slightly_smiling_face: ((((Hugs!!))))

This helps debunk the horrible stereotype that immigrants just come to the U.S. to mooch and “steal jobs.” Stories like yours and your husband’s need to be heard.

I’m glad that you and your husband were welcomed. I hope that you can give back by welcoming others.

Changing the subject, but OK.

Paragraph? :wink: Yea. It works every time.


#436

Yes, the stealing jobs is a myth. And the proof is any US farmer struggling to find workers. They need more help but can’t find anyone willing to do the work.

We do welcome everyone we meet. And I personally think we need to just legalize everyone here that isn’t a violent criminal or somehow otherwise danger to society. After that we need to secure our border while we create channels that allows for an easier process to come here.

We know how lucky we were. It was pre9/11 and he was never deported/arrested, and still it took a lot of money and time out of country to bring him here legally. There is NO process to legalize someone already in the US without them returning to their home country. DACA does not lead to residency or citizenship. That is wrong. We need to fix things. now. big time.

I don’t remember really anything about Bolivia except for visits growing up. I have a special place in my heart for those in the DACA program because that could have been me. Many of them hardly speak anything but English. They have gone to school here, and are just as American as I am. If suddenly I was told I had to go back “home” I would be terrified! My Spanish isn’t that great. I know no one in Bolivia. My family that I visited has all either passed away or I haven’t seen in about 30 years. Imagine what these American in every way teens/young adults would experience! And talk about a target for gangs, cartel, traffickers these young ones with American ties become. Also, they tend to be more innocent and don’t recognize certain dangers because they haven’t grown up with them.


#437

Besides gang members and mobs of young angry men, the Central American caravan making its way into the United States also consists of Africans, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and Indians. Judicial Watch is covering the crisis from the Guatemalan-Honduran border this week and observed that the popular mainstream media narrative of desperate migrants—many of them women and children—seeking a better life is hardly accurate. Guatemalan intelligence officials confirmed that the caravan that originated in the northern Honduran city of San Pedro Sula includes a multitude of Special Interest Aliens (SIA) from the countries listed above as well as other criminal elements and gang members.
link to this Judicial Watch article
There are also large groups of men, some with criminal histories, aggressively demanding that the U.S. take them in. During a visit to the Guatemalan town of Chiquimula, about 35 miles from the Honduran border, Judicial Watch encountered a rowdy group of about 600 men, ages 17 to about 40, marching north on a narrow two-lane highway. Among them was a 40-year-old Honduran man who previously lived in the United States for decades and got deported. His English was quite good, and he said his kids and girlfriend live in the U.S. Another man in his 30s contradicted media reports that caravan participants are fleeing violence and fear for their life. “We’re not scared,” he said waving his index finger as others around him nodded in agreement. “We’re going to the United States to get jobs.” Others chanted “vamos para allá Trump!” (We’re coming Trump) as they clenched their fists in the air. “We need money and food,” said a 29-year-old man who made the trek with his 21-year-old brother.

All of the migrants interviewed by Judicial Watch repeated the same rehearsed line when asked who organized the caravan, insisting it was a spontaneous event even though there were clearly organizers shouting instructions in Spanish and putting select persons in front of cameras for


#438

#439

And this is why I honestly worry about the state of our border. Not only do these types of migrations put the US in danger, it also puts other countries in danger. Really bad people go to countries like Honduras (as if they don’t have enough problems) in order to make it to the southern border. The countries are weaker countries with no training or money to spend on protecting themselves from these people. They are in danger just by having them there and they are a magnet for anyone seeking entry into the US. Do you really think anyone would be migrating to Honduras if they weren’t seeking entry to the US? We’ve all heard how dangerous it is there.


#440

Yes, I agree. I really wish voters and politicians would put politics aside and do what’s best for the safety of American citizens.


#441

But this is not something we all agree on. As far as “judicial watch” is concerned, if they do not see the inherent contradiction between the two terms "conservative and bi-partisan, I wouldn’t trust them with an astrology forecast.

Would you trust a “bipartisan liberal?”


#442

Clearly the nations these people are from are doing poorly. We can hardly blame these people for fleeing such bad conditions. It’s time for us to do something. Clearly the people of these nations are not capable of self governance. So the US should seize them as US territories and govern for them until such time as they are capable.


#444

I see these Caravans as a reprise of the Mariel flotilla of 1980. For those too young to remember, it was portrayed in the opening scenes of “Scarface”.

This event originating in Central America is well organized as well, and designed by liberal politicians trying to embarrass and inconvenience America.- much like what Castro did.

The only real difference is the Caravan is over land, and the Mariel Flotilla was by sea.


#445

You know, I admit that I have wondered about this–taking over these troubled (understatement) nations and turning them into territories. Of course, we haven’t done the best job of taking care of Puerto Rico–isn’t that a territory?

I’m just glad to know that I’m not the only one who had this thought! I was beginning to feel like one of those evil European Conquerors!

It’s probably a nutty idea?? But what else can we do?! We can’t just barge in and start telling them how to fix their problems, can we? I know that some people on this CAF topic have said that the terrible conditions in these countries is the fault of the U.S., so that’s why we need to welcome the caravan in and “make up for our sins against their country.”

Well, that’s fine for the caravan people, but it doesn’t fix any problems in their home country that the U.S. caused back when, so eventually, there will be another caravan and another…wouldn’t it be better to try to fix what we messed up decades ago?!

BUT…how?!! Again, we have no right to march into a country and take over their government and tell them that we’re here to fix everything! They would kick us out because at the moment, our own country is split pretty much 50/50 (according to the secular news media) down Democrat/Republican lines, and it’s very possible that if the Democrats re-take the House, we will spend the next 2 years in total deadlock, getting nothing done unless Pres. Trump decides to go the route that Pres. Obama did and work by Executive Orders instead of through Congress (I hope he doesn’t do that–in the long run, it causes more problems than it fixes, as we’ve seen after Pres. Obama’s terms ended and a new President took the reigns).

I just wish we could trust the media, both secular and partisan. The only person I really trust is one of our local journalists, Michael Koolidge, who has a daily 2-hour radio show in our area. He is NOT a politician, and he does NOT make a million dollars doing his radio show and endorsing products. He’s calm and reasonable (doesn’t yell into the radio mike), and his personal appearances are quite rare, which means he isn’t seeking the adulation of the public.

I also trust Mike Huckabee, but I haven’t been able to listen to him for ages.

I have a very difficult time trusting any Democrats because I’ve seen what people like Speaker of the House Michael Madigan have done to our great state of Illinois and it’s horrible. I spent much of the weekend with my brother, (welder) and the conversation revolved around “should we move out of the Land of Lincoln before it goes broke.”

So how can I trust these Democrat folks who continue to deal with all issues by demanding that Illinois should “Make the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes!”

So I’m stymied, folks. I don’t know what to do with this caravan. We can’t take care of our OWN citizens–why on earth do you think we can take care of tens of thousands of new arrivals?


#446

The problem with Puerto Rico, is that while it is a “territory” it’s a self governing one. The people continuously elect politicians who mismanage money and promise more and more freebies.

This is my problem with democracy. The vast majority of people should really have no say in government. It should be left to the higher born of society who know how to manage things. When you give the bottom rungs of society, which are also the most numerous, they inevitably just vote for whoever promises them more and more with someone else footing the bill. That’s exactly why all the failing south and Central American countries are failing.


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