CARAVAN heading to The U.S.A ( POLL )


#488

Typical leftist strategy. Blame all Americans for what some Americans have done. Slavery? Blame all of America for what Democrat Americans did and Republican Americans fought to eradicate.

Now it is everyone should shoulder the blame for the policies of Neo-Cons and globalists, including Obama and Clinton who destabilized the entire ME and triggered mass migrations by emboldening radical Islamists. Yes, but let’s blame all Americans so that all must now be responsible for what some have done.

Google “Fast and Furious Obama” to see how badly even supposedly benign Democrat policies under presidents like Obama have been disasterous for other countries.

Trump isn’t responsible for what past Ameican governments have done and he ought not be held to bear that responsibility. He should be judged on what he does, not on what past administrations have done. Besides that, it isn’t very clear that opening borders is the best strategy for dealing with the problems that exist in Central America.


#489

I still think the true solution is just seizing these failed states as territories and governing them as colonies. They clearly can’t be trusted to govern themselves.


#490

He hasn’t spoken up against what past American governments have done, and as such children who were harmed should not have to bear the suffering caused by Americans. Jesus wants us to love all children, no? How is it loving children by sending out the military with their weapons including guns and gas to use against children and their parents? Americans have contributed to the ruin of their country, and now that they are suffering from this, the Americans send their military against unarmed children who are suffering from hunger and homelessness. Why don’t Americans help these suffering people, instead of pointing their weapons on them. How many billions of dollars do Americans spend on their many unending wars which only hurt people in the end. What good did all that killing do in Vietnam? Thousands of people dead and billions of dollars spent for what? Why not spend a small portion of that for children who are desperate for a bite to eat and a place to sleep.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Matthew 19:14. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these." Mark 12:31. Calling this leftist strategy is a rejection of what we read in the New Testament about loving all children and loving our neighbor. How is it loving your unarmed neighbor and his children who are hurting when you send your military to act against them? Using chemical weapons such as 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile or dibenzoxazepine can cause vomiting, asphyxiation, pulmonary edema or even death.


#491

As suspected, there is proof that the “caravan” is not coming to the United States for the sole purpose of asylum: Mexico offered asylum, and most of the “caravan” members rejected Mexican asylum. The caravan that is dominated by 70% young-single-males, with a few women and babies shamelessly put in the front as human shields.


#492

What do you think they’re going to do once they get here? Steal one of those pool-sweeping or livestock-slaughtering jobs you were hoping to get for yourself?


#493

A good article…


#494

Sorry, but if the principle you are touting here is that “Love you neighbor as yourself” means every country must permit any foreign peoples to enter their country merely if those people want to enter, then your principle, being a morally obligatory one, must apply at all levels.

You must permit any children or unarmed people who come to your door, in any number, asking for shelter and food to enter your home merely if they ask, because doing anything else contravenes Jesus’ commandments.

You must reassign all other acts of kindness and generosity, no matter what, to those strangers who come asking for help, not at your discretion, but at theirs.

Is that your claim?

No one is permitted dissent or discretion on their part, just obligation to comply because these two principles supersede all others?

I say, if you, personally, choose to do so with your resources, your home, and your goods, then go for it.

Others may think differently.


#495

My claim is this:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12.
And Matthew 25:
[ 31]“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. [ 32 ]All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [ 33 ]He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

[ 34 ]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. [ 35 ]For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [ 36 ]I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

[ 37 ]“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? [ 38 ]When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? [ 39 ]When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

[ 40 ]“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Maybe, but I still would not send the military out to attack desperate and hungry children with chemical agents such as 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile or dibenzoxazepine.


#496

This post is meant to be a reply to AINg, but for some reason, it doesn’t show up as a “reply”, at least not to me. (I’m probably doing something wrong–not a computer-phile!)

But others are welcome to chime in and answer my questions if they wish.

Can you tell us the things that you are doing and/or plan to do to help the Caravan people?

This is not a sarcastic question. I am genuinely curious to know what fellow Catholics are doing, other than praying (which is good!) to help those who are trying to enter the U.S.

If you are donating money, may I ask what percentage of your income, and which organization receives your donation to help the Caravan people? Again, this is not a sarcastic question. I believe that Catholic Social Services is an amazing and good organization, but I also know that the need is so great in my own city that I hesitate to see them divide up their funding between local people and those people in the Caravan.

Other than CCS, I’m not sure which organizations are trustworthy–I would like more of my donations to go to direct aid and paying people who are doing actual hand-on-work (or clerical work) rather than going to an office to pay people who never go near the border. Of course, I realize that charitable organizations need fundraising staff and executives to meet with rich people–but since the need at the border is so great, I would really like to see donations routed to that immediate need.

That’s why I’m asking about your donations.

Or do you actually live at the border and are you doing actual hands-on work with immigrants and refugees, or will you be at the border in the next few weeks doing hands-on work? I’m curious about this work, and also wonder if you had to learn Spanish (or perhaps you already speak Spanish)? Do you feel that the work you and others do helps to give the immigrants and refugees a good start in the U.S.? Is the care and aid that they are receiving helping them to get a good start in the U.S. and keep them out of the hands of the criminal gangs? I hope so–this is one of my biggest concerns about allowing people into this country who have no support community. And that’s another question I have–when the people leave the shelter at the border where you and others are helping them, are there people waiting to help them at their new location?

Finally, do you mind if I ask how old you are (or at least, what “group” you are part of–Baby Boomers, Gen X or Y, or Millential), and if you have any physical limitations?

Thanks so much for your work on behalf of the Caravan people. If there were more people like you, many of us wouldn’t be so quick to raise concerns and objections. :smiley:


#497

Apparently some of the caravan migrants filed a class action lawsuit against Mr. Trump and the Department of Homeland Security for violating their 5th amendment rights…what!


#498

Because it makes total sense for people trying to illegally enter a country to sue the country that’s denying them illegal entry. :wink: “Hey, you’re getting in the way of us breaking the law, so let’s use the law to force you to let us break the law—!” rather than saying, “Hey, let’s follow the rules in the first place…” :wink:


#499

I can’t speak for others, but as a family, we send money to my husband’s town to help improve like there. We also send shoes. Lots of shoes. Because as a child it was the one thing my husband always wanted but never had. If you want to prevent these types caravans, help people where they are. Many will still migrate until safety is ensured. The average American can’t do anything about that. They also WANT to work. They want jobs.

As for immigrants here already? Just be kind. The vast majority aren’t wanting anything more than to work, pay their bills, go to church, send their kids to school, and to give back to the US when the opportunity arises.

Many immigrants that are in the military have a less than ideal start in the US. Some were at one point undocumented. Others were born to undocumented parents. Others married undocumented spouses. The truth is most people that are here illegally has no idea why what they did was wrong. They were just following what others told them is possible. Many attempt to rectify the situation once they learn, but currently there is no clear path to fix their situation. And since 9/11, it’s just gotten harder. It is virtually impossible to fix one’s immigration status. On top of that, there is absolutely no way to bring your family up either. Can you imagine going 20 years or more without seeing family, and the chance is basically zero you ever will again?

If people want to help, or prevent this, work for real reform. Make legal channels, be loving and accepting, support without handouts (provide opportunities), and just treat us like we are American. We give as much as we are allowed. We don’t want free stuff, we want possibilities for our kids.


#500

The migrants filed a lawsuit or was it their handlers who organized all of this?


#501

But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Timothy 5:8)


#502

Most of the people that make this journey don’t have the knowledge to do something like that. I have a feeling if this is accurate, it was either the “advocacy” groups (that do more harm than good) or the few that are returning to the US after deportations or voluntarily leaving.


#503

It can be argued that this is just what the migrants are doing. Most just want to provide for their households.


#504

From an article

Nexus Services Inc. is funding the lawsuits through a civil rights law firm called Nexus Derechos Humanos (Human Rights) Attorneys Inc.


#505

Actually, it would be more like making much more profitable those corrupt businesses that are willing to pay illegals a fraction of what they would if they hired from the existing labour pool, thereby being unfair to both those they employ and those they can choose not to.

Unscrupulous business owners love the fact that a large influx of cheap labour depresses the cost of labour. Serves to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.


#506

So, I’m a landlord.

After I dropped my kids off at school, I went to go meet with some tenants for their walk-through. They have permission to stay in the US and work for 9 months, but then they have to leave the country for 3 months. Then they can come back and work for another 9 months. When they’re in the US, they work in one of the local factories. When they’re in Mexico, they work in agriculture. They started off only being able to work here for three months before having to leave for a period; in a little while longer, they’ll be able to stay permanently and work year-round.

It’s been a long time since I had anyone be so diligent in returning their house to me. I was really impressed. They got their full SD refund on the spot-- which I never do. :wink: The next time they come back, I hope I have something that fits their needs, because I’d love to rent to them again.

But that’s the way you do it. You follow the rules. Bypassing the rules is an insult to all the foreign nationals who are very diligent in jumping through the hoops.

If we ever wanted to change the bureaucracy, I’d support that 100%. But you don’t change the rules by ignoring the rules— you change the rules by looking at the law and following the process to change the laws that are deemed too onerous.


#507

It can also be argued that countries who declare war and invade other countries are just doing what the migrants are doing – providing for their own household.

The question still remains whether it is a just way of providing for your own household by taking from someone else without their permission or without any thought regarding what effect your actions will have on those others.

There is a thing called precedent. If foreigners can simply decide to invade a country for their own economic benefit, then what is to stop the entire population of Central and South America from unilaterally deciding to move to the United States to better provide for their households?

By what principle do you decide 10 million would be fine, but 10 million and 1 is too many?

Or, if you universalize the argument, why wouldn’t poor households in the United States equally have a right to take whatever they want from wealthier households near them under the guise that they are merely trying to better provide for their household?

Where does coveting thy neighbor’s goods come into this?

Is justice now a thing imposed like a heavy boot from above that reduces all nations and communities to equal levels of deprivation rather than a question of moral responsibility?

Let’s just destroy the rule of law and ordered society for the sake of temporarily making everyone equal. That way we can revel in our moral rectitude for a time – at least until the law of the jungle and a Hobbesian lifestyle that is short, brutal and nasty re-emerges from the rubble.


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