Cardinal Dolan: support Ukrainian anti-government protestors [CC]


#1

Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York has expressed strong support for anti-government protestors in Ukraine. "Last August, I was honored to be part of the dedication of the Ukrainian …

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#2

God for the Cardinal. It is a worthwhile protest to be having.


#3

One of the most significant and influential factions in the protest movement in Ukraine is the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party, aka the Social Nationalist Party. Maybe that’s why they’re so eager to join the anti-Christian, pro-euthanasia European Union which is becoming increasingly Nazi-esque. All this talk about a “spring” of “freedom” and “Democracy” is propaganda, ignorance, or both.

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161764

voiceofrussia.com/2013_12_17/John-McCain-accused-of-unscrupulousness-in-choosing-partners-9928/

nytimes.com/2013/12/17/world/europe/unease-as-an-opposition-party-stands-out-in-ukraines-protests.html?src=recg


#4

Look it’s late, and there’s another thread already on Ukraine but your facts are wrong. This Svoboda Party is the one party in the anti-Yanukovych coalition which isn’t pro-EU and was not eager to join the EU in the first place as some of the other radical provocateur bodies also don’t want the EU though they are fighting Yanukovych. Of the three opposition forces to Yanukovych, Svoboda are the smallest. I’ll respond to the columns you quoted tomorrow if I can since it’s late here but this is from what I posted on the other thread on Ukraine about this party Svoboda:

People in the West have to understand that in the post-Soviet states, a ruling criminal elite will actually arrest the leaders of reasonable legitimate democratic opposition parties which pose a threat to it, and this criminal elite will pour millions of dollars into extremist parties to tarnish any opposition, or to co-opt the opposition. In Russia, Putin has done this with Russian xenophobes like the clownish and scary Vladimir Zhirinovsky who is allowed to be vice-speaker of the Russian Duma and is allowed to have his Russian extreme-nationalist party run freely for seats in the Duma while democrats are arrested and not allowed to form political parties. Luke Harding of the Guardian claims in his recent book that Zhirinovsky’s Party is nothing but a den of thieves and criminals which includes Lugovoi whom the British suspect of murdering the anti-Putinist Litvinenko with polonium. Putin used the same tactic by co-opting the Russian xenophobe ultra-nationalist Dmitry Rogozin.

In Ukraine, Yanukovych has followed the same script from the Putin FSB playbook with Bratstvo and even with the Svoboda Party. Serious reasonable oppositionists like Yuri Lutsenko were arrested and put into a penal colony (as is Yulia Tymoshenko whom Yanukovych is completely frightened of) while Svoboda’s coffers began overflowing when Yanukovych gained political power. People would always ask the Svoboda leader who supported his party financially, because his party was putting out more press and rallies than others in the opposition, the assumption always being that it was either Yanukovych or maybe even the FSB covering all their costs to demonize the Ukrainian opposition with extremists. Svoboda literally overnight started distributing thousands of leaflets and papers through Ukraine as soon as the democratic opposition was arrested. Svoboda appeared to be a tool of Yanukovych’s government to tarnish the opposition (as was the Radical Party of Oleh Liashko, completely paid for by Yanukovych, as we’ve now found out) Svoboda’s party’s leader was gifted an expensive Mercedes by one of Yanukovych’s oligarchs.

In other words, Yanukovych hoped that by arresting leaders of any legitimate opposition, radicals would fill the vacuum (especially if they received financial support) and to an extent they have. I once personally asked the President of the organization “Memorial” in Ukraine (which documents the crimes of communism) about several persons in particular in Svoboda and he said he would bang them across the head for their views and that the party’s financing was murky. I cannot stand Svoboda though by now surely Yanukovych and Ukraine’s secret service are not paying them off as they, Svoboda, now have become an anti-Yanukovych force on their own. It is also true that many, many people signed up with this Svoboda party who are not extremists and who don’t share its leadership’s views, simply because they saw it as the only alternative to Yanukovych and because they saw in it a response to Yanukovych’s Russification of the Ukrainian country. This is also true of some of its members of parliament, but, I must stress, an extreme right party like Svoboda would never have come to the fore had it not been for Yanukovych and for his russification policies and criminalization. I could say more about what or whom I condemn in Svoboda and how I revile some of its big shots and their ideology, but right now the larger leaders in this whole Maidan protest are still democrats and Ukrainian patriots like Klichko, Lutsenko, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko, and some in Svoboda actually became more moderate as they politically matured. I have no time for them Svoboda and would probably put my throat out yelling at their ideological head if it didn’t come to fisticuffs, but right now, in Ukraine’s perilous state, the biggest evil and the one that has to be dealt with right now is Yanukovych. He, unlike anybody else mentioned, is actually a threat to the very existence of the Ukrainian state, its growth and well-being and is ultimately responsible for the bloodshed with provocateurs, Berkut and his thugs for hire the “titushky” who apparently have just beat up a bunch of Maidan supporters in Eastern Ukraine.

And if Yanukovych and his criminal Donetsk elite who run the country blind finally leave, the fringe, extremist parties will ultimately vanish. For that matter so should the Communist Party which is allied with Yanukovych’s criminal party.

Again, Svoboda is not pro-EU. You’re mistaken in your original claim.

In any event, this thread is supposed to be about Cardinal Dolan, not Svoboda. The leaders of the Ukrainian Catholic University have argued quite a bit already with this organization Svoboda’s misreading of history and ideology. I believe once Yanukovych is gone, this Svoboda will probably vanish away.


#5

Oh, one last thing. When people voted for Svoboda and they got some 10% of the vote two years ago, the main reason given by most of the people voting for Svoboda was not because they agreed with Svoboda’s ideology, but because they thought it was the only protest vote to Yanukovych’s party whose party’s members wouldn’t defect to Yanukovych and be bribed. Parliament members have indeed defected from Tymoshenko’s Party (which was a worry) but they have not from Klichko’s UDAR party nor from Svoboda. Basically, Svoboda got the vote it did because of the protest vote to Yanukovych, not because a significant portion of Ukraine’s population started suddenly agreeing with the worst elements in Svoboda. Svoboda, to a certain extent, is a creation of the situation Yanukovych has created, but in Eastern Europe, unfortunately, you don’t have to look hard for a far-right minority party. I think this changes once a society sheds its Soviet heritage and becomes a “normal” country not run as a corrupt Mafia state.

In any event, as I said above your allusion to some love affair by Svoboda with the EU is a stretch.


#6

Perhaps you could point out in which particular Treaty you’ll find these particular policies laid out?

which is becoming increasingly Nazi-esque.

Is the EC’s patience finally exhausted, are all Europeans to be gathered ‘Heim ins Reich’? Are the massed hordes of the huge European Army about to be launched at somewhere or other?


#7

Let us pray that the bishops will protest the “government thugs” and “unjust laws” in this country.


#8

KyivAndrew thank you for the clarification. It would not surprize me if the Svoboda party is anti-EU since that would fit well with their nationalism. I maintain my statement that the EU is Nazi-esque in that its member states have enacted and continue to enact laws making it legal for doctors to murder disabled children and adults. (Of course the US is going in a similar direction).

I remain skeptical of your claim that the neo-Nazis and other radicals in the protest movement were funded by the Russian government, and even more so of your assertion that should the Ukrainian regime be overthrown then the radicals would disappear. In revolutions it tends to be the worst thugs who rise to the top, whether they be Communist thugs or neo-Nazi thugs.


#9

I would be happy to see evidence that leaders of the UGCC, or the Roman Catholic Church, have publicly censured Oleh Tyahnybok for being the head of a neo-Nazi hate group, since he is apparently also a member of the UGCC. Such censures would be a welcome change from the actions of the US bishops who routinely collaborate with the tyrannical actions of the US government and its pro-abortion and pro-euthanasia agenda. Cardinal Dolan himself is a prime example of this shameful collaboration.


#10

Look Alex, there are 3 different threads now on Ukraine and the EU and on them all, it appears, most pro-Yanukovych, pro-Putin, anti-West posters are basically using the subject of Ukraine as a proxy/kicking horse for their own hatred of the West. Most blindly come at the subject of Ukraine and commit the error of “mirror-imaging”; they blindly take for granted what we have in the West, as bad as it may seem, and assume the rule of law, as it exists in the West, surely must exist in post-Soviet countries they have never been to. They see abortion in the West, but refuse to see that abortion is even higher in states like Ukraine and Russia. They refuse to see that despite worries about euthanasia in the West, immoral governments exist in places like Ukraine which allow sex-trafficking, corruption in incredibly broken health systems, and an absolute disregard for human life as seen in orphanages in places like Ukraine or Russia. The curse of alcoholism, which ravages societies as described in Oliver Bullough’s Last Man in Russia barely gets mentioned here on CAF.

Ukraine has barely any rule of law nor division of powers; the countries in the West, including the US do, as incredibly difficult as it is for the self-hating posters on CAF to understand. South Korea belongs to the Western world, should we all get behind North Korea then because it doesn’t?

On your latter point about revolutions, I am proud of the revolutions of 1989 (and some of them like in Romania were violent, and in Poland) which brought down communist tyranny.

For you to maintain that the EU is “Nazi-esque” surely betrays any knowledge of Nazism or death camps. Poland and Italy are EU members; please tell me where they keep their millions locked up in death camps?

Moreover, if the West is so immoral and Naziesque, why aren’t you moving to Yanukovych’s Ukraine or Putin’s Russia? Seriously, wouldn’t that be better than living under Nazi-esque tyranny in the West?


#11

On the latter point, I don’t know what to say to a CAF poster who has the authority to condemn bitterly a Cardinal of the Catholic Church and cast all these aspersions of Nazi-esque tyranny in the West.

On the former point, not all members of Svoboda are from Ukrainian Catholic regions and, in any event, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has had some history of conflict with Svoboda including local Svoboda government members taking away the Ukrainian Catholic University’s exempt status for property tax out of anger at the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

radiosvoboda.org/content/blog/2289611.html

The pro-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University Marynovych, who I believe is on the Board with the Ukrainian Catholic Cardinal Huzar, has condemned in no uncertain terms certain members’ of Svoboda ethnocentrism, nationalism based on hate, zealotry.
radiosvoboda.org/content/article/2280236.html

It’s kind of funny that the members of Svoboda use the same language to describe democrats that pro-Putin defenders do: both call their critics “liberasts” and other terms. Perhaps the most powerful historian in today’s Ukraine Yaroslav Hrytsak said long ago Svoboda benefits Yanukovych’s Regions Party:
youtube.com/watch?v=fY9yd1hCC0s

And I’m not going to translate all of the above into English. There are so many posters here now passing themselves as experts on Ukraine and the EU and telling Ukrainians they’re wrong, then these posters must evidently understand Ukraine better than I can, including its language.

In any event, Alex, you’re the one who made the initial equation of the EU with Nazism, so please enlighten us and tell us how the US/EU can best be described and understood as “Naziesque” and equated with Hitler’s Germany.


#12

28 countries belong to the European Union. Of those 28, only three (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) have legalized euthanasia.That means only 11% of EU members have legalized euthanasia, which is hardly grounds for condemning the entire EU as Nazi-esque. A vast majority of EU members disagree with those three countries.


#13

That’s actually quite a good example of a ‘fallacy of composition’.

Perhaps you might indicate, for example, when those laws were enacted in each of the member states of the Union and what it actually has to do with the EU itself?


#14

“We have been through an epoch of atheism, and we know what it is to live without God,” Patriarch Kirill said. “We want to shout to the whole world, ‘Stop!’”

Other figures within the Orthodox Church have gone further in criticizing the West. Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, a church spokesman, suggested that the modern-day West is no better for a Christian believer than the Soviet Union.

Soviet authorities executed some 200,000 clergy and believers from 1917 to 1937, according to a 1995 presidential committee report. Thousands of churches were destroyed, and those that survived were turned into warehouses, garages or museums of atheism…

washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/28/whos-godless-now-russia-says-its-us/print/


#15

KyivAndrew wrote:

It is also true that many, many people signed up with this Svoboda party who are not extremists and who don’t share its leadership’s views, simply because they saw it as the only alternative to Yanukovych and because they saw in it a response to Yanukovych’s Russification of the Ukrainian country. This is also true of some of its members of parliament, but, I must stress, an extreme right party like Svoboda would never have come to the fore had it not been for Yanukovych and for his russification policies and criminalization. I could say more about what or whom I condemn in Svoboda and how I revile some of its big shots and their ideology, but right now the larger leaders in this whole Maidan protest are still democrats and Ukrainian patriots like Klichko, Lutsenko, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko, and some in Svoboda actually became more moderate as they politically matured…

You’re attempting to defend and legitimize Svoboda despite your avowed dislike for them. It’s good to see such clarity and consistency. If you’re trying to convince me that Svoboda is in fact a player that has support within the protest movement, that is treated as a legitimate and crucial part of the movement, then you’ve succeeded. Good luck on your xenophobic crusade to stamp out “Russification.” Perhaps when you’re done remaking Ukraine into your version of Utopia, Pope Francis can preside at the demolition of the Churches and the reconstruction of atheist museums in their place; and he can give flowery speeches about how Marxists are good people and atheists go to heaven as long as they do what feels good.


#16

Alex,
No I’m not going to legitimize Svoboda, can’t stand those guys, but the only reason they kind of popped up in this thread is because of your erroneous belief that they loved the EU. My questions at you are directed at the EU: I’ll repeat my question since you have problems answering it:
Alex, For you to maintain that the EU is “Nazi-esque” surely betrays any knowledge of Nazism or death camps. Poland and Italy are EU members; please tell me where they keep their millions locked up in death camps?

I think Kaninchen also asked you about the EU as well and you didn’t answer. You made the assertion that the EU is “Naziesque” so back it up.


#17

Wow, you really despise Pope Francis. That is an incredible statement for you to make on CAF on your part.


#18

Father Vsevolod Chaplin also stated that Russians today can praise “many achievements of the Soviet time,” and says that the Soviet Union of the 40s-60s “brought peace to many countries, created a great superpower, educated many people and increased our scientific and cultural heritage.”
interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4941

Sure, the Soviet Union was incredibly peaceful.

In any event, my original question which you refuse to answer is: How is the EU Naziesque?


#19

Pure hyperbole.


#20

I’m not too up on what’s going on in Ukraine, but I understand it’s potentially on the brink of a civil war. I skimmed the article on Cardinal Dolan’s support for the protestors; it gave the impression that the two sides constitute a repressive government versus reformers or liberalizers of some sort, with the Orthodox clergy on the side of the reformers. Is that an accurate portrayal and if so why is there any controversy about supporting the reformers?

P.S. I know that reality is often more complicated than what one can glean from a short news article, hence my question to any one who is willing to answer it.


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