Catholic Asks For Answers


#1

Now, hold on. I know the routine....if you're not able to answer/don't want to, please don't post here. I am dead serious about getting rational, reasonable, LOGICAL proofs to make me believe much more in my faith. Please, please no "opinion" posts. I need real answers, not prayer promises--though pray, if you feel called to! :thumbsup: Let me also warn you that I have been put-off by this site in a big way. It makes me doubt more than anything.
So here's what I basically really believe, for sure and not because I was told to: I believe in God.
Now, here are my questions, one at a time.
When speaking to an atheist (I always take that view point when forming an answer to a religion question), how do I convince him/her that there is a God? This is the big thing the apologetics book I studided forgot to answer. Rather, it sloughed over it with big words that still left me confused. Simple terms, if you can. Just give me some basic ways to prove to anyone that there is a God, who--my resident atheist asked me this just today--came out of nothing, and always was. He said: "Do you believe in evolution?" I said no, that nothing can not produce something. He then said that believing in God makes that statement untrue, as God came from nothing, in a manner of speaking.
Ok, help welcome.


#2

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:1, topic:296539"]
Now, hold on. I know the routine....if you're not able to answer/don't want to, please don't post here. I am dead serious about getting rational, reasonable, LOGICAL proofs to make me believe much more in my faith. Please, please no "opinion" posts. I need real answers, not prayer promises--though pray, if you feel called to! :thumbsup: Let me also warn you that I have been put-off by this site in a big way. It makes me doubt more than anything.
So here's what I basically really believe, for sure and not because I was told to: I believe in God.
Now, here are my questions, one at a time.
When speaking to an atheist (I always take that view point when forming an answer to a religion question), how do I convince him/her that there is a God? This is the big thing the apologetics book I studided forgot to answer. Rather, it sloughed over it with big words that still left me confused. Simple terms, if you can. Just give me some basic ways to prove to anyone that there is a God, who--my resident atheist asked me this just today--came out of nothing, and always was. He said: "Do you believe in evolution?" I said no, that nothing can not produce something. He then said that believing in God makes that statement untrue, as God came from nothing, in a manner of speaking.
Ok, help welcome.

[/quote]

Nothing can precede its cause.
Nothing can cause itself.
Nothing can be the effect of an infinite causal chain.
Therefore there had to be something which itself was not caused. That is God.

We can't have an infinite causal chain going back into time, since we'd never arrive at this moment that I am typing.


#3

[quote="Edward_H, post:2, topic:296539"]
Nothing can precede its cause.
Nothing can cause itself.
Nothing can be the effect of an infinite causal chain.
Therefore there had to be something which itself was not caused. That is God.

We can't have an infinite causal chain going back into time, since we'd never arrive at this moment that I am typing.

[/quote]

That's the very same proof my book gave me! But it seems to leave the same thing out: Why does it have to be "God"? Do you understand what I mean? If I told an atheist what you posted, he would and has! tell/told me that I have not proved anything. I have simply put my own name on something that cannot be proved.
Not trying to argue, just so's you know. :thumbsup:


#4

evolution-

catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

athiesm

creation.com/atheism


#5

[quote="mab23, post:4, topic:296539"]
evolution-

catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

athiesm

creation.com/atheism

[/quote]

does the bible not say that God created man out of the dust? He made Adam and Eve, didn't he? The Adam, etc. link is confusing me more. I have always been told that God created the world and EVERYTHING in it by an act of His will. I'm a very poor person as regards bible knowledge, but I'm fairly sure that it tells us what God created on each day? Or am I wrong?


#6

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:3, topic:296539"]
That's the very same proof my book gave me! But it seems to leave the same thing out: Why does it have to be "God"? Do you understand what I mean? If I told an atheist what you posted, he would and has! tell/told me that I have not proved anything. I have simply put my own name on something that cannot be proved.
Not trying to argue, just so's you know. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

That's right. It doesn't compel the belief in a personal God. Reason is left to draw other conclusions as long as there's not refuting data. My reason tells me that among the highest order of created things there is a notion of RELATIONSHIPS. In fact relationships seem directly proportional to placement within the ordering of animate beings.

So this is one small interesting piece in a set of other converging pieces that seem to point to a God who is personal, who has relationships. The Trinity is a relationship of 3 persons in one God.


#7

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:1, topic:296539"]

When speaking to an atheist (I always take that view point when forming an answer to a religion question), how do I convince him/her that there is a God?

[/quote]

You don't. Not your job. Your job is to show them Christ through yourself.

BTW, God created the whole physical universe from nothing.


#8

[quote="Julia_Mae, post:7, topic:296539"]
You don't. Not your job. Your job is to show them Christ through yourself.

BTW, God created the whole physical universe from nothing.

[/quote]

but i feel the need for practical proof. I can't show anyone something I don't understand/know myself. Do I make sense? it's hard to put into words.


#9

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:1, topic:296539"]
When speaking to an atheist (I always take that view point when forming an answer to a religion question), how do I convince him/her that there is a God?

[/quote]

It really depends on the attitude he has towards the possibility of there being a God. There is no surefire way prove God to someone who won't even accept the possibility of there being a God. A lot of this has to do with someone's view toward Christianity. Those who are turned off by Christianity often won't even listen to your argument in its fullest explanation going from excuse to excuse to try and convince you that you're in-fact wrong, and not him. These types of atheists are not worth convincing, because they won't listen to anything you have to say. They won't listen to reason, the very thing they claim to hold so dear.

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:3, topic:296539"]
That's the very same proof my book gave me! But it seems to leave the same thing out: Why does it have to be "God"? Do you understand what I mean? If I told an atheist what you posted, he would and has! tell/told me that I have not proved anything. I have simply put my own name on something that cannot be proved.
Not trying to argue, just so's you know. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

God is what we call it Similar to how they call the "new found elementary particle" the Higg's Boson. That is just what we call it. We use our reason to show that something must exist for a particular thing to be true. We give that thing a name and then try to understand it.

We, as Christians, go a step further and make the claim that God is love, mercy, justice, and personal aside from just having been the creator, or ultimate cause. These aspects of God can be reasoned out, as C.S. Lewis does in his book Mere Christianity, by showing that what is considered moral is, in fact, not subjective.


#10

If someone does not have the minimum common sense to realize that the creation of the universe, and the precision with which it operates, calls for an intelligent being, who we call God, then I cannot see that that person could accept any more complex explanation. This intelligent being had to exist before the creation of the universe in order to create it. Also, there has to be an intelligent being who had no creator, or that creator would be God. In other words, there has to be a first cause. We call Him, God.


#11

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:8, topic:296539"]
but i feel the need for practical proof. I can't show anyone something I don't understand/know myself. Do I make sense? it's hard to put into words.

[/quote]

God often wants whatever is getting inthe way of greater unity between Him and us.

That may be our love of comfort, it may be sin, it may be pride' or vanity, or money, or bitterness.

It may be our pride in what we think is our intelligence. It may even be our doubt.

So we need to be wiling to give up anything and everything that's getting into way.

Many people hold onto their intelligence, maybe like Thomas the Apostle.


#12

excuse me for shifting topics, but here is something I have recently come to wonder very much about. Are people actually born gay?


#13

That’s a good question, but please see the Forum Rules. If you want to shift topics, you need to start a new thread.


#14

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:12, topic:296539"]
excuse me for shifting topics, but here is something I have recently come to wonder very much about. Are people actually born gay?

[/quote]

It is debatable, because science has still not come to a final conclusion. But our view is that no, people are not born gay per say. People may have a same-sex attraction, but they have the choice as to what to do about their attraction. The media would have people believe that if you are attracted to the same sex that you have to adopt the gay life style or you will not be happy. This would involve disowning Christian morals and teachings. But there are many people who are devout Christians with same-sex attractions, who have chosen to follow Christian teachings and remain chaste and avoid homosexual relationships, and they are perfectly happy about their choice from what I can tell.

The media would also have you believe that being gay is part of your essence, that you can't fight it, when in reality it is probably a chemical imbalance in the brain whether caused by something while in the whom, something that is genetic, or something caused by environmental factors. This is how it is with things that involve the brain.

[quote="daisybee, post:13, topic:296539"]
That's a good question, but please see the Forum Rules. If you want to shift topics, you need to start a new thread.

[/quote]

Agreed, you should. Or search for a thread that already exists.


#15

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:8, topic:296539"]
but i feel the need for practical proof. I can't show anyone something I don't understand/know myself. Do I make sense? it's hard to put into words.

[/quote]

Then you ask God for that. But no amount of proof will convince someone else.


#16

[quote="ReachingFaith, post:12, topic:296539"]
excuse me for shifting topics, but here is something I have recently come to wonder very much about. Are people actually born gay?

[/quote]

Yes, but you can't prove it to most people.


#17

[quote="daisybee, post:13, topic:296539"]
That's a good question, but please see the Forum Rules. If you want to shift topics, you need to start a new thread.

[/quote]

sorry, i thought it would all fit under my neat little heading...:p


#18

Well, if ReachingFaith is talking to an honest atheist, then that atheist will probably suggest that, yes it’s possible that a god exists, but he does not believe that to be the case. You have to believe in God on faith, there is no proof available.

If you want to bolster your faith with notions such as ‘creation needs a creator’ and ‘the evidence is all around you’ etc. then that will be your prerogative, but it’s not likely to convince an atheist of what you would see as the error in his ways.

You need to be aware that it isn’t the case that any given atheist does not believe just in the Christian God. He doesn’t believe in any gods at all. So any argument that you feel is sure to convince him otherwise, or at least cast doubts in his mind, will also apply to all other religions and their gods as well.

Even if you could convince someone that there had to be a creator (in which case we could all stop looking for a natural solution), then the obvious answer to that from an atheist would be: ‘OK, now convince me that it had to be supernatural, then convince me it’s a single god, then show me that it’s the one in which you believe’.

I’m really not sure that people wonder about the creation of the universe, come to the conclusion that it was supernatural and then cast about looking for the best explanation, finally settling on Christianity. Correct me if I’m wrong, but most people start with Christianity which comes with the answer pre-packaged.

I believe in God, therefore he created the Universe.
I believe in God and He created the Universe.
I believe in God because he created the Universe.

Which is correct?


#19

[quote="Bradski, post:18, topic:296539"]
You have to believe in God on faith, there is no proof available.

[/quote]

Yes, there is. The same proof early sailors had that a platypus existed. But they couldn't prove it to anyone else. In that time, if people wanted to see it, they had to go look for themselves.

Same with God. I do not have faith in God. I know. You can too.


#20

Yes, I know that. My point is that most of the atheists I know say most often that they don’t believe in “God” referring to our God instead of the plural. And some of them too have very negative views of Christianity, which obviously played into their disbelief. Such as if a dog bites a young child and that child grows up afraid or angry with anything associated with dogs. Some people are so stubborn/aggressive in their disbelief because of their negative view of Christianity. Their view on other religions with gods, like pagan culture, is passive.

And just to make it clear, I’m not saying all are this way, just some if not most of the ones I’ve come across personally.


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