Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon


#1

… NOT!

Seriously, though, tomorrow I’m going to have to present a case for why the Catholic Church ISN’T the Whore of Babylon to my SDA teacher. I already checked Catholic Answers, but it feels a bit lacking.

I need:

  1. A comprehensive case for why the Church is not the Whore of Babylon.

and

  1. Who IS the Whore of Babylon. (Ex: If it’s pagan Rome, why? If it’s the Prot. Reformation, why? If it’s modern secularism, why?)

Scripture is essential.

Finally, if any Protestants here want to debate this, well, I guess this is the place to do it.


#2

I am not the one to help you there, but you may want to post again under a different title, I almost just passed right on by because I wasn’t in the mood to deal with those kind of people right now. I saw only one person had even read your post.:frowning:

God Bless


#3

[quote=MariaG]I am not the one to help you there, but you may want to post again under a different title, I almost just passed right on by because I wasn’t in the mood to deal with those kind of people right now. I saw only one person had even read your post.:frowning:

God Bless
[/quote]

Serious?

Well, I put this title since I thought it would get my fellow Catholics riled up and ready with some quick defense.


#4

[quote=Archbishop 10-K]… NOT!

Seriously, though, tomorrow I’m going to have to present a case for why the Catholic Church ISN’T the Whore of Babylon to my SDA teacher. I already checked Catholic Answers, but it feels a bit lacking.

I need:

  1. A comprehensive case for why the Church is not the Whore of Babylon.

and

  1. Who IS the Whore of Babylon. (Ex: If it’s pagan Rome, why? If it’s the Prot. Reformation, why? If it’s modern secularism, why?)

Scripture is essential.

Finally, if any Protestants here want to debate this, well, I guess this is the place to do it.
[/quote]

The buden of proof is on them not us. we have history on our side. show the catholic teachings found in each period of history and ask them whne it became apostate. Also show them how it was Israel that whored itself to Rome and that is the sibol in Revelation.


#5

Well, I wish you had more time but, for future reference, I highly recommend Scott Hahn’s Bible study on Revelation titled “The End” (available from Saint Joseph Communications saintjoe.com).

Naturally, you need to remember that they symbols in Revelation have multiple interpretations.

The Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon because she is the New Jerusalem descended on Earth; the offspring of the woman. The Whore of Babylon is not Rome because Rome (in Revelation) is the Beast. The Whore of Babylon is the earthly Jerusalem in the time of Christ; the one who rode the beast (Rev 17) and who was given authority by the beast. This statement is not a blanket statement against Jews; not even against all Jews of the time. Political and religious officials of Jerusalem cooperated with Rome in bringing about the crucifixion of the Messiah.

Jerusalem was not some dump of the Roman empire but was one of its jewels and it was a major trading center. When Rome ultimately destroyed Jerusalem and her temple, it was a major event (Rev 18). We also know that Jerusalem was Babylon (the name of the harlot who rode the beast) because the blood of the prophets and the saints was found in her. (Rev 18:24) The prophets (Old Testament) and the saints (the New Testament martyrs) were persecuted by Jerusalem. Jerusalem initiated the persecution of the Christians before the Romans took on that role. In fact, I don’t know if there is any historical evidence of Roman persecution of Christians prior to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD.


#6

[quote=theMutant]Well, I wish you had more time but, for future reference, I highly recommend Scott Hahn’s Bible study on Revelation titled “The End” (available from Saint Joseph Communications saintjoe.com).

Naturally, you need to remember that they symbols in Revelation have multiple interpretations.

The Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon because she is the New Jerusalem descended on Earth; the offspring of the woman. The Whore of Babylon is not Rome because Rome (in Revelation) is the Beast. The Whore of Babylon is the earthly Jerusalem in the time of Christ; the one who rode the beast (Rev 17) and who was given authority by the beast. This statement is not a blanket statement against Jews; not even against all Jews of the time. Political and religious officials of Jerusalem cooperated with Rome in bringing about the crucifixion of the Messiah.

Jerusalem was not some dump of the Roman empire but was one of its jewels and it was a major trading center. When Rome ultimately destroyed Jerusalem and her temple, it was a major event (Rev 18). We also know that Jerusalem was Babylon (the name of the harlot who rode the beast) because, when she was destroyed, the blood of the prophets and the saints was found in her. (Rev 18:24) The prophets (Old Testament) and the saints (the New Testament martyrs) were persecuted by Jerusalem. Jerusalem initiated the persecution of the Christians before the Romans took on that role. In fact, I don’t know if there is any historical evidence of Roman persecution of Christians prior to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD.
[/quote]

No Argument here, the two are not mutually exclusive. but in the case of the SDA I think it most apropiate.


#7

In fact, I don’t know if there is any historical evidence of Roman persecution of Christians prior to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD.

Well, I thought Nero was before the Temple incident. For example, St. Peter was martyred in 64 or 67 A.D.


#8

Sorry, but I’m not familiar with SDA.


#9

I agree with Maria, but I’ve read enough of your posts to know what you meant by it. :slight_smile:

That said, I dont remember scripture right off the top of my head, so I’ll have to get back to you on it.


#10

[quote=theMutant]Sorry, but I’m not familiar with SDA.
[/quote]

Seventh Day Adventist. It’s the group that parked this thread.


#11

[quote=Richard Lamb]Seventh Day Adventist. It’s the group that parked this thread.
[/quote]

Thanks.

[quote=Archbishop 10-K]Well, I thought Nero was before the Temple incident. For example, St. Peter was martyred in 64 or 67 A.D.
[/quote]

I admit that you’ve got me there, although who instigated the arrest of Peter and Paul? It was my understanding that they were executed by Rome primarily because the Jews, who were under the jurisdiction of Rome, did not have the authority to execute people. This is also why Rome executed Jesus. In any case, you do point out Roman persecution of Christians before the destruction of the temple; I stand corrected.


#12

You can ask your SDA teacher how the Catholic Church could possibly be the Whore of Babylon spoken of in John’s Revelation when the only Church in existence at the time was the Catholic Church that was hiding in the catacombs from the Roman emperors!

The Whore of Babylon was either apostate Israel (see Scott Hahn’s treatment of this theme in The Lamb’s Supper) or it was Imperal Rome that was persecuting the Church.

Here is an article you may find useful: ewtn.com/expert/answers/whore_of_babylon.htm.


#13

geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/sda.htm

SDA’s unmitigated and irrational hatred for Catholics stems from foundress Ellen Gould White’s writings which are full of glaring ignorance and malicious bigotry. Why bother with SDA venom? Still, Babylon is Babylon, land of the Tigris and Euphrates, Iraq. And the Whore of Babylon is an economic system. When Babylon falls, the merchants of the world weep. “Babylon is fallen!”

And Babylon has fallen. With the fall of Babylon came the revelation of fifty billion in “oil-for-food” money which was stashed in a French bank by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Anan, and his son. These are those factions–the revived Roman Empire of Daniel, the EU, and the world system of the U.N.–which are in bed with the Whore of Babylon.

The Woman Clothed with the Sun of Apocalypse 12, that great sign in the heavens, was fulfilled in the Blessed Virgin’s appearance at Fatima, Portugal, in 1917 under her title “Our Lady of the Rosary.” That’s our mama, who’s Son is taken to Heaven, and whose other seed are persecuted. The Woman & Seed formula fulfills God’s curse of Lucifer in Genesis 3:15, so important it is called the Proto-Evangelium, the “pre-Gospel.”

In Genesis 3:15, there are only two options: Woman & Seed, and Lucifer & seed, ever at enmity. SDA’s have pitted themselves against Catholics and their mama. Who’s the SDA mama? Ellen Gould White, foundress of their heterodox religion which contradicts Jesus in saying there’s no Hell? Women are forbidden teaching authority over men, have been since after the Genesis fall. SDA’s true founder is the Father of Lies and Murder, and they are the seed of Satan.


#14

Here’s a new question for y’all:

Did the idea of the immortal soul come from paganism?

“The concept of the immortal soul was at the heart of Babylonian worship. The thought that the soul leaves the body at death comes directly from paganism.”

Yes, I know, it’s hogwash, but I could still use a good rebuttal.

To clarify, SDAs believe that the soul dies at physical death, and the spirit goes to God (basically spirit+body=soul.) It’s probably just a battle of semantics, I know, but still, can anyone refute this claim historically speaking?


#15

[quote=Archbishop 10-K]… NOT!

Seriously, though, tomorrow I’m going to have to present a case for why the Catholic Church ISN’T the Whore of Babylon to my SDA teacher. I already checked Catholic Answers, but it feels a bit lacking.

I need:

  1. A comprehensive case for why the Church is not the Whore of Babylon.

and

  1. Who IS the Whore of Babylon. (Ex: If it’s pagan Rome, why? If it’s the Prot. Reformation, why? If it’s modern secularism, why?)

Scripture is essential…
[/quote]

I’m looking for the article refutting Dave Hunt’s “Whore of Babylon” charges. It is more than complete and will help you a lot.

MrS


#16

Go to www.ewtn

go to document library

at key words, type in Whore of Babylon

click on James Akin, part 1 and 2. you can view, print, etc

hope this helps - it is probably somewhere in this site too.

MrS


#17

Now, what does Revelation say about the Great Whore? Look at the following verses: “How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.”

“For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.”

“But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.”

OK, so I tricked you. Those verses aren’t from Revelation; they are Isaiah 1:21, Jeremiah 2:20, and Ezekiel 16:15-18 respectively. And the identity of the harlot? It is Jerusalem.

And this is really what Revelation says about the Whore: Revelation 17:15-18
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. and the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

“Great city”? Which city is “the great city”? Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.. Now, was Jesus Christ crucified in Rome – or in Jerusalem?

BUT BUT BUT… Says the SDA… It says its the city of Seven Hills and thats Rome…

No It does not. It says Seven Mountains and [font=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][size=2]Rome isn’t built on seven mountains. Mountains are big, hills are small. There are two separate words for them and Scripture is familiar with both (see Luke 3:5 and Luke 23:30). Rome’s seven hills are Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian (hey, how come Vatican Hill is never listed?).
Jerusalem, however, is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah. There are even Psalms about them, “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” {Psalms 125:2)

The Whore is the once Faithful City of Jerusalem.
[/size][/font]


#18

[quote=metal1633]Now, what does Revelation say about the Great Whore? Look at the following verses: “How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.”

“For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.”

“But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.”

OK, so I tricked you. Those verses aren’t from Revelation; they are Isaiah 1:21, Jeremiah 2:20, and Ezekiel 16:15-18 respectively. And the identity of the harlot? It is Jerusalem.

And this is really what Revelation says about the Whore: Revelation 17:15-18
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. and the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

“Great city”? Which city is “the great city”? Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.. Now, was Jesus Christ crucified in Rome – or in Jerusalem?

BUT BUT BUT… Says the SDA… It says its the city of Seven Hills and thats Rome…

No It does not. It says Seven Mountains and [font=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][size=2]Rome isn’t built on seven mountains. Mountains are big, hills are small. There are two separate words for them and Scripture is familiar with both (see Luke 3:5 and Luke 23:30). Rome’s seven hills are Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian (hey, how come Vatican Hill is never listed?).[/size]
Jerusalem, however, is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah. There are even Psalms about them, “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” {Psalms 125:2)

The Whore is the once Faithful City of Jerusalem.
[/font]
[/quote]

You stole my post. The vatican is on hill eight on the other side of the river. SDA’s won’t care about facts


#19

[quote=ralphinal]You stole my post. The vatican is on hill eight on the other side of the river. SDA’s won’t care about facts
[/quote]

Yes on the other side of the river. Not even IN the ancient city of Rome.


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