I was accused of this and really don’t know what to say. The person even posted a pic that did look like catholic clergy (Bishop with sash and beanie) smiling with Hitler. How do I respond to this? Do I have to apologize for the church because of this? I am frankly tired of apologizing for the sins of the church. :mad:
You have to be very careful with pictures like this. The very first thing you need to do is find out WHEN the picture was taken. Hitler came to power in 1933, and the war didn’t start until 1939. Hitler met with many officials (and even hosted the 1934 Olympics) in the years before World War II, and so the photo may be nothing more than that.
Second, you can show your friend the examples of saints who died in the concentration camps protecting people. Third, there has been a lot of recent scholarship that is proving that the pope at the time did what he could to stand up to Hitler and protect Jews, contrary to what people have said in the past.
Although I suppose he might be able to find a few examples of collaborating priests (as you can in many wars), the vast majority of the Catholic Church held to the faith.
Mention to your friend the book by RABBI David Dalin THE MYTH OF HITLER’S POPE.
This totally debunks this slander.
One incident that the book does not mention:
Israel Zwolle, sometime chief rabbi of Rome, was baptized AFTER the war (47 or 48) when there was no great advantage in doing so. He took the name Eugenio (Pius XII’s baptismal name). Now, would he have done these things if the Pope had collaborated with the Nazis?
Furthermore, the State of Israel said the Vatican had saved more European Jews than all the American Jewish organizations put together.
Does this picture of the British Prime Minister meeting with Hitler mean that Great Britain supported Hitler and the Nazis?
Jay, It sounds to me like you need to do a lot more study before venturing on to whatever discussion boards you frequent. If you do not know your own church history, you are in trouble when discussing these types of issues.
Your last line, “I am frankly tired of apologizing for the sins of the church” is troubling because there is nothing to apologize for. It seems like maybe you are believing these comments and apologizing where there is no need.
Maybe you should lay off the internet discussion board, study and read some books, and then return.
With respect to history…
If Hitler died in say 1937… though his anti-semitic behaviors were starting to become known, Many people agree that he would have gone down in history as one of the greatest leaders of the 20 century…
Keep in mind, in 1933, Germany was in worse shape due to strife, poverty, and a collapsed Deutchmark than many third world countries today. By 1936ish, the country had become a technological, industrial and financial power house.
Yes,. he ended up being a terrible example of a leader, but generally speaking, this didn’t show itself in its fullest until roughly 1938 when he ‘reclaimed’ part of Austria
Just something to consider
I can FULLY defend the church in regards to the sacraments, mass, the original church, and all the rest of the doctrines.
Maybe there was a misunderstanding. I can defend the church teachings to the fullest extent. The human sins of the leadership, such as the militant homosexual attacks involving the clergy, really cast a horrible light on ALL CATHOLICS. I know the church teachings and the human errors are like comparing apples and oranges. Two different things. I just wanted to know on how to respond to the nazi allegation which I am not very familiar with so I came here to learn. That is what this board is all about. I do quite well in defending the church on 95% of things thrown at me. I come here for a little boost on rarely talked about subjects.
Relax… it’s propaganda.
You might point out to them that though no one was able to save 6 million Jews the fact is that while the rest of the world was sitting on its hands, the Church, under the leadership of Pope Pius XII quietly did all it could for those they could reach. There were many thousands that were hidden in the pope’s summer home. (Just for example)
Then ask them why the Nazis murdered St. Maximillian Kolbe in Auschwitz if the church was so tight with the Nazis.
There was even a section in Dachau Concentration Camp called the “Priest Barracks”, so named for all the Catholic clergy imprisoned there.
I didn’t know that. Can you PM me a link so I can add it to my blog article?
Gee, I guess someone forgot to tell Blessed Clemens August Cardinal Count von Galen, Bishop of Munster. Otherwise, it seems unlikely he would have stood up in the pulpit of his cathedral, denounced Nazi plans for euthenasia, and subsequently made such a nuisance of himself he ended up in a concentration camp.
American prelate Francis Cardinal Spellman of New York must have missed it, too. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have used his influence to arrange US military air transport to Rome for a German Bishop (guess who?) who was made Cardinal just after the war, and paid his expenses.
You know, some things are just so laughable that the only thing to do when people spout them at us is to laugh in their faces.
Well, Wikipedia mentions it in its Dachau entry. I also found this book review:
*]**1.**The Church is a Church of sinners - what else but sin is to be expected ?
*]2. Some bishops were less than vocal in protesting against Nazism - one sat as a member of the Reichstag until the end of the war.[/LIST]- Was this wrong ? :shrug: It’s easy to condemn or defend people in hindsight, if one does not know much of the detail; if you don’t know the ins & outs of the life of the Church under the Reich, just say so: it is not wrong to admit one does not know - but it is often far from wise to try to answer a question as complex as this, if one does not know the details. No one can know everything about the history of Catholicism in modern times - let alone know everything about Catholicism. So don’t feel you have to respond.
The Church has often compromised itself by the political choices it has made - this is to be expected. The fatal error is to insist that the Church is always right in everything it ever does or says or omits to do - for this is both untrue & unnecessary. Things are complicated by the fact that what seems right, & is greeted & praised as such, in one era or country, will often be denounced as immoral or vicious by a later generation.
This book is absolutely a jewel! It should have been Hitler’s Mufti!:mad:
BTW, I think it is Rabbi Dolan.
During World War II, close to 80% of the Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe were exterminated. In Italy, close to 85% of the Jews survived. This is more than a coincidence; it’s not a coincidence. It had a lot to do with the personal intervention and involvement of Pope Pius XII.
Rabbi David Dalin, author of The Myth of Hitler’s Pope
i think hitler was just a modern day “great deciever”. he had many nations supporting him, and seemed an al around good guy with good plans. that is, until his real plans showed through, and many of his supporters, and people who liked him, realized they were very, very wrong. thats what i think of the pic.:shrug:
This will link you to 14 articles discussing how the CC did not support Hitler and the Nazis.
Not to mention about 2 million Polish Catholics.