Catholic Dogma Goes Against Bible Teachings


#1

Hi, it’s JPhoenix again. I’m Catholic and I got a big problem. There’s another Forum I go to and met a protestant who says that Catholic Dogma Goes against Bible Teaching. I’ll paste the attachment of his claims. Can you correct or clarify any info on this.

***"KEY DATES IN THE EVOLUTION OF ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE ***

300 – Prayers For The Dead

300 – Making The Sign Of The Cross

600 – Worship in Latin Language

700 Circa – Roman Catholic began to kill and torture “heretics”, beginning Inquisition These “heretics” were people who believed in ancient Egyptian Mysteries

And in the revival of that belief system, known as Gnostics and Hermetics.

754 – Temporal, Political power of the Pope

788 – Worship of Mary and the Saints

788 – Worship of the cross, images, and relics

858 – Donation of Constantine

965 – Baptism of Bells

998 – Fasting on Fridays and on Lent

1000 – Creation of Holy Water

1090 – Praying by using Rosary beads

1123 – Enforced celibacy for priests

1190 – Sale of Indulgences

1215 – Transubstantiation of the Wafer

1215 – Auricular confession of sins to the priest

1303 – Roman Catholic Church as the only Catholic Church

***1438 – Purgatory Proclaimed ***

***1545 – Tradition equal in authority to the Bible ***

***1545 – Justification (Putting into right standing with God) by good works, not by faith ***

***alone ***

***1545 – Apocryphal books added to the Bible ***

***1854 – Immaculate conception of Mary ***

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope lost the secular power enjoyed over most of Western Europe, called the Papal States. ***

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope Pius IX, convened Vatican Council I. Main item on the agenda was the infallibility of the Pope. "After much intensive lobbying and some very unchristianlike pressure, the pope suffered a major moral defeat when, out of over 1,000 bishops entitled to take part in the Council, only ***

***451 voted for infallibility. But by a strategy of politicking and threatening all but two of the dissenters left Rome before a final vote was taken. At the last meeting of the council, on July 18, 1870, it was decided by 533 votes to 2 that the pope was infallible when defining a doctrine concerning faith or morals." ***

***1950 – Assumption of Mary" ***

THESE ARE ALL AGAINST THE BIBLES TEACHINGS "

    • These qoute was taken from another Forum by a member called BonJovi4Life. I can’t provide the link since I am not sure posting another Forum site is allowed here.

#2

[quote=JPhoenix75]Hi, it’s JPhoenix again. I’m Catholic and I got a big problem. There’s another Forum I go to and met a protestant who says that Catholic Dogma Goes against Bible Teaching. I’ll paste the attachment of his claims. Can you correct or clarify any info on this.

***"KEY DATES IN THE EVOLUTION OF ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE ***

300 – Prayers For The Dead

300 – Making The Sign Of The Cross

600 – Worship in Latin Language

700 Circa – Roman Catholic began to kill and torture “heretics”, beginning Inquisition These “heretics” were people who believed in ancient Egyptian Mysteries

And in the revival of that belief system, known as Gnostics and Hermetics.

754 – Temporal, Political power of the Pope

788 – Worship of Mary and the Saints

788 – Worship of the cross, images, and relics

858 – Donation of Constantine

965 – Baptism of Bells

998 – Fasting on Fridays and on Lent

1000 – Creation of Holy Water

1090 – Praying by using Rosary beads

1123 – Enforced celibacy for priests

1190 – Sale of Indulgences

1215 – Transubstantiation of the Wafer

1215 – Auricular confession of sins to the priest

1303 – Roman Catholic Church as the only Catholic Church

***1438 – Purgatory Proclaimed ***

***1545 – Tradition equal in authority to the Bible ***

***1545 – Justification (Putting into right standing with God) by good works, not by faith ***

***alone ***

***1545 – Apocryphal books added to the Bible ***

***1854 – Immaculate conception of Mary ***

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope lost the secular power enjoyed over most of Western Europe, called the Papal States. ***

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope Pius IX, convened Vatican Council I. Main item on the agenda was the infallibility of the Pope. "After much intensive lobbying and some very unchristianlike pressure, the pope suffered a major moral defeat when, out of over 1,000 bishops entitled to take part in the Council, only ***

***451 voted for infallibility. But by a strategy of politicking and threatening all but two of the dissenters left Rome before a final vote was taken. At the last meeting of the council, on July 18, 1870, it was decided by 533 votes to 2 that the pope was infallible when defining a doctrine concerning faith or morals." ***

***1950 – Assumption of Mary" ***

THESE ARE ALL AGAINST THE BIBLES TEACHINGS "

    • These qoute was taken from another Forum by a member called BonJovi4Life. I can’t provide the link since I am not sure posting another Forum site is allowed here.
      [/quote]

I think this has been circulated many times…but here you go. I guess you can add the bible to this list, finalized in 400 AD, you can add the Doctrine of the Trinity in 400 something AD, Altar calls 1800 AD and I can go on and on.

Remember something too, a lot of these things are flat out wrong, and you really need to consider the source before taking it as hard fact. For example, prayers for the Dead pre dates Jesus and has been happening (as evidenced in the old Testament) a long time. Making the sign of the Cross…who cares when that started, as well as the use of Latin. Latin was used primarily because that was the common language and the reason it stuck around so long in worship was due to tradition.

I would love to go into more details on all of these however this will take a lot of time and pages. A couple more I will touch on. Catholics have never worshipped Mary or the Saints. Water was blessed and used in Baptism and is similar to holy Water however more symbolic. Catholics never have worshipped Images, Relics, or Idols. Tradition pre-dates the bible however the church has always maintained (since the Church pre-dates the bible) that scripture must always be interpreted in light of Tradition. Justification, that along with most of these is downright laughable.

As with most of these accusations, this person obviously has no clue on many things, and they are wrong. Take one point at a time and they will all be destroyed systematically.


#3

That looks like the infamous Lorraine Boettner list from his anti-Catholic book “Roman Catholicism”. First note that most of the items on the list have nothing to do with doctrine or dogma. Then note that a date does not mean that the thing sprang up out of thin air on that date, but usually only that it was finally pronounced upon or ruled upon. As an example, while “transubstantiation” may have been defined in a council in 1215, “transubstantiation” is just a logical result of belief in the Real Presence, which the Church has believed from day one.

As to everything on the list being “against bible teachings”, of course as Catholics we don’t believe any of the actual teachings of the Church go against bible teachings (not everything on the list is even true, BTW), but even a non-Catholic would realize that e.g. worship in the Latin language hardly goes against bible teachings. :rolleyes:

Many of the (more or less) true things on the list are quite biblical, others are derived from the entire deposit of the faith (of which Scripture is only part), and others derive from the power of the Church to bind and loose, or are simple disciplines that the Church has adopted. No one refutation fits all of them.

Maybe the best approach is to argue only one item at a time. Or turn the tables around and ask the poster if there is not a single item on the list that is not obviously against biblical teachings (which would show that the list is not infallible). Or you could point out the obvious distortions of Catholic teaching in the list, such as the never-ending charge that we worship Mary and the saints. In other words, don’t try to knock down the whole castle at once, but pick one portion and start undermining from there.


#4

[quote=JPhoenix75]Hi, it’s JPhoenix again. I’m Catholic and I got a big problem. There’s another Forum I go to and met a protestant who says that Catholic Dogma Goes against Bible Teaching. I’ll paste the attachment of his claims. Can you correct or clarify any info on this.

***"KEY DATES IN THE EVOLUTION OF ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE ***

[/quote]

I believe this is Loraine Boettner’s tired old list. How wearisome. One can only scratch one’s head at some of these things.

Sign of the cross? This is AGAINST biblical teaching?

As for killing heretics, this was also a favorite sport of the Protestant Reformation.

Mass in Latin language? Whassa problem widdat? Latin was the vernacular. Before that Mass was in Greek. Do Protestants worship in Greek?

Worship Mary, saints, cross & relics? Do Catholics WORSHIP these things? Of course not.

Priestly celibacy? That’s well outlined in the New Testament. And the practice was mandated in the Latin Church long before 1123.

Baptism of bells? Bells are blessed using holy water. Nobody ever believed this was “baptism.” Oh. Bells (like ships) are given names. I guess that means they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior.

1215 Confession to a priest? He’s gotta be kidding. There is ample evidence of this practice in the VERY early Church and it its fully warranted by Scripture.

OK, I’m tired. But every one of these things can either be refuted, challenged, denied or enthusiastically affirmed!


#5

The list is downright goofy, and the truth is…your friend has probably only read the list and has not researched the allegation behind each item.
Is your friend a baptist?
Here’s a good site showing how baptist doctrine is contrary to the bible…

members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html


#6

Ooh, Lorraine Boettner rides again!

To start with, I would ask them if they understand the difference between the “4-Ds” of the Catholic Faith.

These are:

Dogma: formal declaration. A Catholic must believe in these, and a dogma cannot change.

Doctrine: teaching of the church, less formally defined but no less binding than a dogma. A Catholic must believe the doctrines of the Church, and the doctrines cannot change.

Disciplines: rules/laws of the Church. A Catholic must obey the disciplines in force at that time, but disciplines may change. (More later.)

Devotions: traditional practices. A Catholic may adopt any approved devotion, but is not required to adopt any particular devotion.

The reason I ask is that many of the things on the list are, in fact, disciplines and devotions. Also, giving the date a doctrine was raised to dogmatic force doesn’t mean that the doctrine wasn’t taught prior to that date. In fact, the doctrine would have been taught previously, and some particular circumstance at the time led to the Church, in essence, putting Her foot down and saying “this is what [doctrine] means”.

Now, on disciplines, here is the analogy that I have used. Like a parent, the Church has the authority to make rules (or laws, in the case of the Church) which are binding on those under that authority (one’s children for a parent; Catholics for the Church). The authority does not change, but the rules may. For example, when a parent has a 2yo child, they may set bedtime at 8pm (or even earlier). When that child becomes 12, still holding them to the bedtime of their 2yo sibling is a little absurd, and the bedtime might be changed to 9:30pm. This isn’t to say that the 12yo couldn’t choose to go to bed at 8pm for some reason; however, the 2yo cannot stay up until 9:30 because that will be the bedtime when he is older. In this case, the parental authority includes the right to set (and change) the bedtime of the child(ren). It’s the same way with disciplines in the Church–the Church has the authority to set the rules, and unless the previous rule is specifically forbidden, one can follow an older rule. (For example, let’s consider the Friday abstinence–outside of Lent, one is now free to substitute some other penitential act for abstinence from meat; one is equally free to not substitute. Or the duration of fasting before Communion–one is free to fast longer [according to prior required lengths] than the current rule.) Priestly celibacy happens to fall under the disciplinary category, for example.


#7

No Mercygate, protestants worship in English just like the King James Bible. Dont you know that is the Bible St Paul used :banghead:


#8

i really think you need to hang out here a bit more before you go headlong into fairly deep discussions. spend a month or two on this site, and memorize some scriptures (as no prot will listen to you if you don’t know your bible). that said, i’ll make a quick stab at some of these with the words of people much smarter than i…

***"KEY DATES IN THE EVOLUTION OF ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE ***

***300 – Prayers For The Dead
***catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
third question down. also, you may want to investigate why martin luther rejected maccabees (hint: prayers for the dead).

300 – Making The Sign Of The Cross
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007cc.asp
does he really have a problem with the cross?!? how is this against bible teachings?!?

***600 – Worship in Latin Language
***catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007bite.asp
jerome translated the bible into latin in 405, and it is still known as the “vulgate” (latin for “common”, or the common tongue). until about a century ago, nearly everyone who could read could read latin. jews prayed in hebrew, even though it was a dead language…we use latin. again, how is this **against **biblical teaching?!?

700 Circa – Roman Catholic began to kill and torture “heretics”, beginning Inquisition These “heretics” were people who believed in ancient Egyptian Mysteries And in the revival of that belief system, known as Gnostics and Hermetics.

eh? i have no idea what, specifically, he’s talking about, but here’s something on the inquisition (where this would invariably go):
catholic.com/library/inquisition.asp

754 – Temporal, Political power of the Pope
bible - matt 16:18 and 18:18. temporal power of the pope and bishops. biblical. period. political - i would say that Jesus himself was a fairly significant political force…even temporally…wouldn’t he? does he desire that christians have nopolitical power, but rather be dominated by pagans and athiests? this is blind silliness.

788 – Worship of Mary and the Saints
catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
we have a word for those who worship mary and saints — HERETICS! they are due honor, but never worship!

788 – Worship of the cross, images, and relics
scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html

858 – Donation of Constantine
965 – Baptism of Bells
i don’t really know what these are…

998 – Fasting on Fridays and on Lent
scripturecatholic.com/fasting.html

1000 – Creation of Holy Water

  1. Numbers 5:17 - King James Versionhttp://www.redegg.org/images/divider.gifAnd the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
    1090 – Praying by using Rosary beads
    catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0212fea4sb1.asp
    nothing anti-biblical about the rosary…it’s SCRIPTURE!

1123 – Enforced celibacy for priests
catholic.com/library/celibacy_and_the_priesthood.asp
it’s all over the bible

1190 – Sale of Indulgences
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb2.asp

1215 – Transubstantiation of the Wafer
what the heck is this?!? this isn’t even a belief!

1215 – Auricular confession of sins to the priest
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
much earlier than 1215…how about ~33 a.d. when Jesus told us to do it?


#9

1303 – Roman Catholic Church as the only Catholic Church

ONE faith. it’s in the bible that way. blame the one who wrote it!

***1438 – Purgatory Proclaimed ***
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
how does this idiot put the sale of indulgences 300 years before the idea of purgatory?!? this is laughable!

***1545 – Tradition equal in authority to the Bible ***
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
again, it’s in the bible. blame the one who wrote it.

***1545 – Justification (Putting into right standing with God) by good works, not by faith ******alone ***
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.”

***1545 – Apocryphal books added to the Bible ***
the guttenburg bible, written some 30 years prior, included the deuterocannonical books (the “apocryphal books” he speaks of).
envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html

***1854 – Immaculate conception of Mary ***
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope lost the secular power enjoyed over most of Western Europe, called the Papal States. ***
wha?!? source!!

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope Pius IX, convened Vatican Council I. Main item on the agenda was the infallibility of the Pope. “After much intensive lobbying and some very unchristianlike pressure, the pope suffered a major moral defeat when, out of over 1,000 bishops entitled to take part in the Council, only ******451 voted for infallibility. But by a strategy of politicking and threatening all but two of the dissenters left Rome before a final vote was taken. At the last meeting of the council, on July 18, 1870, it was decided by 533 votes to 2 that the pope was infallible when defining a doctrine concerning faith or morals.” ***

truth is not, nor has it ever been, decided by “majority vote”. this is garbage.
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

***1950 – Assumption of Mary" ***
re-read rev 12. prots see hitler and the stock market in revelations, but can’t understand that the woman who gives birth to Christ may have something to do with the Virgin Mother! they’re nuts!
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9205fea2.asp

***NONE OF THESE ARE AGAINST THE BIBLES TEACHINGS!!

***please READ the links, and understand WHY we believe what we do before you plunge headlong into debates…

RyanL


#10

I think the waffer meaning the Eucharist. Protestant believe that the bread is just the symbol of Christ. I know Catholics know Christ is present there since the beginning of Christianity.


#11

Just one more thing. You may come across some old Catholic material saying that we do worship Mary and the Saints. That is because the meaning of the word “worship” has changed somewhat over time. The word is of course from the English and meant worth-ship. It was even used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship

What the protestants are trying to say is that we “adore” Mary & and saints which is of course sinful.


#12

sigh…Don’t y’all get tired of this? Seriously, why do so many people misunderstand & bash our Faith and then they won’t listen to why certain things are done. If they don’t want to be Catholic, fine. Why the constant bashing?

As I’ve said before, if Catholics “worshipped” Mary and the Holy Father, why then would we deny it? :banghead: :banghead:

Shannin


#13

JPhoenix,

Can you give me one good reason why you go to a forum that has heritics. Why would you give the time of day to a heretic?

I don’t know why , you a Catholic would allow yourself to be tangled with a Protestant who is SPITTING IN YOUR FACE. His very question is so IGNORANT it doesn’t deseerve a responce. He is spitting in your face and you dont know it. Wake up.


#14

FYI, I am not leaning to the leaving the Church, but this guy is a Protestant, most likely a Lutheran since he does cite him a lot. I am new and try to counter any misunderstandings he has about the Catholic Church.

Joey aka JPhoenix


#15

[quote=JPhoenix75]FYI, I am not leaning to the leaving the Church, but this guy is a Protestant, most likely a Lutheran since he does cite him a lot. I am new and try to counter any misunderstandings he has about the Catholic Church.

Joey aka JPhoenix
[/quote]

Joey, I doubt this guy is a Lutheran. No Lutheran worth his salt would buy this junk.


#16

[quote=JPhoenix75]Hi, it’s JPhoenix again. I’m Catholic and I got a big problem. There’s another Forum I go to and met a protestant who says that Catholic Dogma Goes against Bible Teaching. I’ll paste the attachment of his claims. Can you correct or clarify any info on this.

    • These qoute was taken from another Forum by a member called BonJovi4Life. I can’t provide the link since I am not sure posting another Forum site is allowed here.
      [/quote]

You can tell he’s a Bon Jovi fan just by looking at the dates on the timeline. They are pretty bad and give all the false attacks that have been answered.

First look at the date that he claims the deuterocanonicals were added. He is claiming that it was the council of Trent that added them. Look at the councils of Rome, Hippo, Carthage, Trullo, and Florence. They all say the deuterocanonicals are part of scripture. The first three were in the fourth century. I think Trullo was in the seventh century and Flourence was in the beginning of the 1400’s. All of these are long before the date he gives.

That one thing proves how unknowlegdable the person was who put it together.

Augustine mentions the fast of Lent in his writings. I can’t recall what I read it is. The fact that Augustine fasted in Lent is another strike against this timeline.

Purgatory, look at Gregory Of Nissa’s writings and Clement of Alexandria for Purgatory. There are several others, but those should prove him wrong that it was created in 1438. That is strike three, your out.

None of these dates are even worth looking at. I would like to ask where in the bible it says that Latin is bad. I would also like to give this person a Catechism to show him how little he knows about the faith.


#17

[quote=RyanL]1303 – Roman Catholic Church as the only Catholic Church

ONE faith. it’s in the bible that way. blame the one who wrote it!

***1438 – Purgatory Proclaimed ***
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
how does this idiot put the sale of indulgences 300 years before the idea of purgatory?!? this is laughable!

***1545 – Tradition equal in authority to the Bible ***
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
again, it’s in the bible. blame the one who wrote it.

***1545 – Justification (Putting into right standing with God) by good works, not by faith ******alone ***
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.”

***1545 – Apocryphal books added to the Bible ***
the guttenburg bible, written some 30 years prior, included the deuterocannonical books (the “apocryphal books” he speaks of).
envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html

***1854 – Immaculate conception of Mary ***
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope lost the secular power enjoyed over most of Western Europe, called the Papal States. ***
wha?!? source!!

***1870 – Roman Catholic Pope Pius IX, convened Vatican Council I. Main item on the agenda was the infallibility of the Pope. “After much intensive lobbying and some very unchristianlike pressure, the pope suffered a major moral defeat when, out of over 1,000 bishops entitled to take part in the Council, only ******451 voted for infallibility. But by a strategy of politicking and threatening all but two of the dissenters left Rome before a final vote was taken. At the last meeting of the council, on July 18, 1870, it was decided by 533 votes to 2 that the pope was infallible when defining a doctrine concerning faith or morals.” ***

truth is not, nor has it ever been, decided by “majority vote”. this is garbage.
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

***1950 – Assumption of Mary" ***
re-read rev 12. prots see hitler and the stock market in revelations, but can’t understand that the woman who gives birth to Christ may have something to do with the Virgin Mother! they’re nuts!
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9205fea2.asp

NONE OF THESE ARE AGAINST THE BIBLES TEACHINGS!!

please READ the links, and understand WHY we believe what we do before you plunge headlong into debates…

RyanL
[/quote]

Thank you RyanL…for explaining this to JPhoenix…you really spent some time on this. I couldnt have said it bettermyself…plus links!!! Awesome Defender of the Faith


#18

Before posting in non-Catholic forums or attempting apologetics, it’s probably a good idea to read and re-read Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, which covers this tired old litany rather early on in the book.


#19

Thanks everyone.


#20

By the way, Baptism of Bells is nothing more than blessing bells to be used in Churches. Baptism of Bells is just a saying. If he has a problem with blessing bells what is the difference from blessing our food.

Joshua


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