Catholic Dogma -- help me on Immaculate Conception


#21

I always liked the Baltimore Catechism explanation for why…

Q. 269. Why was the Blessed Virgin preserved from original sin?

A. The Blessed Virgin was preserved from original sin because it would not be consistent with the dignity of the Son of God to have His Mother, even for an instant, in the power of the devil and an enemy of God.


#22

Bingo. Mary herself recognizes that she needs a savior in the Magnificat. This dogma is based on typologies that the apostles themselves never proposed and that contradicts what we know about anthropology from Romans: None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one…Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. Additionally, in 1 Corinthians: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Therefore, let us all share the faith of the Blessed Mother and rejoice as Mary did in God our Savior.


#23

The song is asking a rhetorical question. You don’t need to take it so literally. Of course, Mary knew. :thinking:


#24

I am by far not the only Catholic who has found issue with it being sung in Catholic Masses.


#25

Ok, I’m sorry you have such an issue with the song. You don’t have to like it or listen to it. I don’t know why you’re taking it up with me. I posted a video of Fr Mike talking about the Immaculate Conception and he happened to sing it in the video.

If it makes you that upset, take it up with him.


#27

Are you really implying that since Fr Mike sings “Mary, Did You Know?” that he doesn’t understand the fundamentals of the faith and tradition??

Wow. :astonished: That is quite a high horse you are on.

How about not slandering and doubting the majority of our current priests and pray for them instead?

Would you mind elaborating on how long and where you were in seminary?


#29

Consider the Eastern church.

They developed with their own theological traditions and expressions, and yet they also agree (in substance) with the Latin-expressed views of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

How so?

Easterners express the Theotokos as “all-holy.” Whereas the fine details of the Immaculate Conception are not expressed in Eastern theology – mainly because the related concepts were not expressed in the same way in West and East (like Original Sin), the Orthodox DO regard the assumption to be a REAL event.

But if the assumption (dormition) is a real event, then that strongly suggests Mary’s sinlessness — for the wages of sin is death.

So, in other words, the fact that the East has the substance of the same beliefs – especially Mary’s dormition (which suggests her sinlessness) – then don’t worry about it being a Roman Catholic invention.


#30

So, because you went to the seminary for two years, that makes you some kind of expert on tradition more than an ordained priest? :thinking: That’s very interesting.


#31

I used to be studying liturgy while other seminarians were hanging out watching movies that had nothing to do with the Church and many times were immoral.
I left and am now joining a traditional society.

So yes I think I do.


#32

It’s pretty much Catholic except for the verse “This Child that You delivered will soon deliver You”. Mary was delivered from Original sin at Her Conception through Her Son who wasn’t born yet by the Grace of God. That verse could be sung in a Catholic way if sang " This Child that You delivered has already delivered You."

I think for a non Catholic Mark Lowry did a good job of putting Mary’s love for Her Son into lyrics.


#33
  1. Saint Thomas Aquinas was neither Pope nor council.
  2. The Church often, even normally defines doctrine in response to heresy.

#34

Deliver you into Heaven during the Assumption? You could twist it that way I guess…


#35

No, she means Jesus had already delivered her from sin before He was born.


#36

To what heresy do these beliefs about Mary respond?


#37

I said “normally”

Mary has come under increasing attack since the reformation. Evan/Fund Christians call her common, a woman who simply had Jesus as the first of a string of children. Obviously, they are unwitting victims of bible alone, but they lack any depth of theology.


#38

I do not know what circles you run in, so I cannot attest to what you have personally experienced, but I have never personally heard a Protestant believer make the claim that Mary was just a common woman. That would be a gross misrepresentation of Protestant belief. We just don’t see the scriptural evidence or necessity to elevate her to an almost demi-godlike status. There is a difference between denigrating Mary, and holding her in proper reverence.


#39

What is Protestant belief? There are 30,000 sets of beliefs!

Again, from the outside, you cannot understand the relationship that 300 million Orthodox and 1.2 billion Catholics have with the mother of Christ and the mother of all Christians - that’s in the bible. The theology is far more profound and developed than the increasingly typical “ME and Jesus” approach.

But, they have to read outside of Romans to find it.


#40

Would you prefer we look at the Marian quotes in the gospels? My bad. Dogmas that must be held at the risk of being declared as anathema don’t need scriptural evidence, do they?


#41

The immaculate conception of The Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius the IX in 1834.Everyone is a sinner and is need of a Savior (Romans 3:23) so Mary was a sinner and need of a Savior.


#42

I was SO GLAD when he gave the talk on “Mary Did You Know?” at the end! This song, as a convert and music minister, has been my nemesis. EVERYONE wants it at Masses and I obstinately refuse to play it at Mass. All I remember was how it was played at every Christmas service in my old church to talk about the fallen-ness of Mary and how even she could be Jesus’ mother because God can use anyone. Like he said, it’s an okay song, it’s just that one line so people are fine to like it all they want. It’s just NEVER appropriate at Mass!


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