Catholic fringe disrupts Kristallnacht ceremony


#1

news.yahoo.com/catholic-fringe-disrupts-kristallnacht-ceremony-170954080.html


#2

I'm shocked, but sadly not surprised. :(


#3

Reminds me of that unfortunate moment when a local candidate for County Commissioner gets an endorsement from the KKK.

To remember the atrocious massacre of innocent life, to decry the horror of war, to pray for forgiveness on behalf of all the world - even to pray for our enemies and the terrible things done by the Nazis and others ... these are all callings of a Church who loves Jesus Christ.

To show those who do not know Him that He is not offended by their unbelief, but that He loves them as much as He loves me, a poor sinner for whom He shed His Most Precious Blood, and that He welcomes them into His House ... these are callings of a Church who loves Jesus Christ.

I wonder if the SSPX would own up to the actions of these protesters - since at least one is noted to have said that Auschwitz was a lie, I suspect this to be the fringe of that separate church.


#4

I honor Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre but not sure he would have approved of this.


#5

This is horrible...


#6

Are they considered a fringe of the Catholic Church, or are they a protestant church? I'm not up on the whole SSPX thing so forgive my ignorance. I'm not comfortable with people thinking these people are Catholics.


#7

Unfortunately there are fringe ‘ultra traditionalist’ Catholics who do embrace these attitudes.


#8

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:7, topic:345177"]
Unfortunately there are fringe 'ultra traditionalist' Catholics who do embrace these attitudes.

[/quote]

Not all of them do. There are fringe elements everywhere you look, even in our own Church.


#9

I wouldn’t contend all do but there are some who do. Unfortunately Christianity, both eastern and western has had real issues with anti-Semitic attitudes at times, especially at the level of the common people where rarefied intellectual attitudes which can differentiate between critiquing Jews and elements of the faith became muddled into scapegoating the Jews. Although the relationship betweens Jews and members of the apostolic Churches is complex and couldn’t be neatly summed up the sad history of pogroms, ghettoes and other problematic issues have not helped relationships between Christians and Jews over the centuries. We have made some progress of late with regards to that , although both Jews and Christians can at times happily take ten steps backwards at times.

Groups like these ultra-traditionalists do not help matters. Especially the lamentable cry of ‘Christ killer’ which one hoped was consigned to the dustbin of history. The people shouting that should remember everyone who lived could be charged with that crime so it might be wisest for them not to make the accusation.


#10

Jharek, I agree with you completely.


#11

I don’t know that one can rightly characterize all “ultra-traditionalists” by this. There is not the least doubt in my mind that SSPX friends of mine would be appalled by it. But those are Americans.

Argentina, as we know, was long infected with fascist Peronism and undoubtedly still is among some. Many a Nazi found refuge for himself in Argentina under Peron.

I doubt this is so much an “SSPX thing” as it is a “Peronist residue thing”.


#12

SSPX is not a protestant church. It’s a group of Catholics who are presently at odds with the Vatican over some of the Vatican II documents. One of their disagreements, for sure, is ecumenism. The SSPX is oriented to the “Church triumphant” concept that prevailed pretty much everywhere in Catholicism until Vatican II. VII didn’t really change to a total relativist (Modernist, if you will) view of other religions, but the tenor of the documents suggest that to some who, in my opinion, overreacted.

And too, when Bishop Lefevre ordained priests against Vatican prohibition, that was done because Lefevre believed VII’s seeming (but not real) endorsement of liturgical “experimentation” led to potentially invalid Masses and Eucharists.

The SSPX people I know consider themselves Catholics in every way, and they are except in the respects mentioned above. Their sacraments are valid (though considered illicit) They accept the Pope and the teachings of the Church back to the very beginning.

I can see how Argentines, many of whom can be suspected of fascistic orientations anyway, could take an even more extreme position toward anything they considered excessively “ecumenical”.

I don’t agree with them, certainly. But I don’t identify this event with SSPX generally.


#13

Basically the SSPX sounds like Catholicism's Westboro Baptist Church :eek:


#14

The Westboro Baptist Church is not so much a “Baptist church” as a hate organization. The SSPX merely disagrees with Rome and the Second Vatican Council, which is not necessarily bad because of valid sacraments. They may think a bit more archaically (they may have a different view of ecumenism and the Catholic Church) but their Masses are acceptable if a diocesan or FSSP Latin Mass isn’t there.


#15

:thumbsup:


#16

[quote="djames99, post:4, topic:345177"]
I honor Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre but not sure he would have approved of this.

[/quote]

Given we're talking about a man whose father died in a Nazi concentration camp, even with his opinions he would in my opinion not have endorsed this sort of thing. He had many flaws, even concerning Jews, but this was not one of them.


#17

Got it, I think I get it. I forgot that the sacraments are valid.


#18

It’s been my understanding that in most cases SSPX marriages and confessions are not valid sacraments, due to the lack of faculties.


#19

[quote="LiberalPrincess, post:13, topic:345177"]
Basically the SSPX sounds like Catholicism's Westboro Baptist Church :eek:

[/quote]

That's about as accurate as calling the Southern Poverty Law Center the new "Know Nothings" party. False equivalence based on appallingly shallow comparisons.

I do believe the SSPX has a significant problem with anti-Semitism. Not because anti-Semitism is in ANY way at the root of why they exist, but because of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" syndrome. The SSPX exists because they think the catholic church hierarchy has compromised the teaching of the faith to the point of heresy. They have a certain appeal because an awful lot of that HAS happened throughout the church in the last 60 years.

But by setting themselves apart from the authority of the Holy See, they inherent tend to attract some kooks along the way who have OTHER grudges with the Holy See (mainly it's efforts to stamp out "Christ killer" scapegoatism once and for all). By defying episcopal authority, SSPX innately weakened their own ability to keep a clean house and haven't managed to shake out these guys yet. I hope they do eventually, but in the meantime the presence of an anti-Semitic constituency within the SSPX doesn't fundamentally change their purpose and mission any more than the presence of people like (defrocked priest) Matthew Fox changed the identity of the Dominicans. Damage is done in both cases, to be sure, but usurpers shouldn't be given the credibility of defining that which they seek to usurp.


#20

[quote="LiberalPrincess, post:13, topic:345177"]
Basically the SSPX sounds like Catholicism's Westboro Baptist Church :eek:

[/quote]

That's a bit harsh. Unlike the WBC, whose raison d'etre is to act hateful at the slightest provocation, the SSPX generally don't go in for things like this. And even non-SSPX Catholics have had problems with anti-Semitic attitudes and ideas (look up E. Michael Jones, for one example.) I am no fan of the SSPX or Lefebvre (who had some very suspect political ideas), but the comparison to the WBC is hyperbolic and inaccurate.


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