Catholic Mass attendance plummets in Poland

The Church is doing what she always does - standing firm against the culture of death, fearlessly witnessing to the Gospel of Christ. Only by looking to this one unwavering beacon of light amidst a sea of aggressive secularism will the people of Europe (and the entire West, for that matter) be granted the clarity and grace return to the Fold.

I don’t have any scientific fact to base my opinion but I believe we can correlate church attendance to the rise, spread, and ease of access of the internet. Net addicts are so self-absorbed, it seems to me they have little time for anyone else let alone God. Perhaps they even equate Google to God…? God have mercy on us all.

There may be some merit in that argument. The entire world of television hadn’t exactly brought more people out to their worship services either, though we could use a lot more Archbishop Sheens out there IMO.

Attendance has been falling since before the internet. It’s possible that TV and internet contributed in the same way it contributed to less outdoor activity. More excuses to stay home.

Yet another traditionally Catholic country experiences a great falling away of Faith. Maybe this is the End Times. I hope not.

Ah yes, suicide by John Paul II’s doctrine.

It does not take a genius to realize that the 21st century is an era of confrontation between the Western democracy and Islamic fundamentalism. The two cannot co-exist; they are incompatible on multiple levels. This confrontation will conclude by the end of century, with complete destruction of one of these competing ideologies (and possibly both).

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, still lives the intellectual legacy of John Paul II’s pontificate – which identifies the secular state as the sole enemy of the Church, and completely ignores the danger of Islamic fundamentalism. By defining itself as opposition to the secular state, the Church chose the side of Islamist invaders. See what happened when Switzerland decided to do something to stop the spread of Islam in Europe:

Catholic Church Leads Critics of Swiss Ban on Minarets

The vote not only undermines the chances for dialogue and mutual respect among various religions but also makes it harder for religions and culture to coexist, the bishops said.

The campaign, which the right-wing Swiss People’s Party initiated to stop what it called the “Islamization of Switzerland,” was filled with “exaggerations and caricatures," the bishops said.

Archbishop Antonio Maria Veglio, president of the Vatican’s Council for Migrants and Refugees, said shortly before Sunday’s referendum that feelings of aversion and fear exist everywhere. But “a Christian must be able to go beyond all this, even if there is no reciprocity,” he said.

The Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano likened the Swiss vote to the European Court of Human Rights’ recent ruling against crucifixes in Italian classrooms.

Let me repeat that for you. There is a creeping invasion of (Western) Europe by adherents of a foreign religion and foreign civilization. The Europeans have realized that there is a problem and they have taken steps to stop it. And the Catholic Church – which built the modern Europe – is opposing the efforts to stop that invasion! Why? Because opposing Islam is secularism, and secularism is evil!

Faithful to JP2’s legacy, the Catholic Church wants to dismantle the secular state. The Muslims want to dismantle the secular state (and institute caliphate). Both are working together (if independently) to undermine the Western civilization.

It’s a really elaborate way of committing suicide, because there is no possible outcome where the Chuch can survive:

  • if the secular state wins, it will do so by annihilating any religious institutions, including the Church

  • if the Muslims win, they will institute caliphate, and kill all the non-believers – starting with Church hierarchs.

The terrorists won’t win. People are already wary of multiculturalism and most people in the West are opposed to immigration already. People are only going to get more and more opposed to the takeover plot and put a halt to it.

One thing I agree with though is that a secular state is much better for the Church than an islamic one. A secular state would not support and would be slightly opposed to the Church, but it wouldn’t try to violently destroy the Church. A secular state would be immoral but the Church could survive. The Church could not survive in an islamic state, just look at the middle east.

Here’s a good synopsis:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/december/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20061209_giuristi-cattolici_en.html

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, still lives the intellectual legacy of John Paul II’s pontificate – which identifies the secular state as the sole enemy of the Church, and completely ignores the danger of Islamic fundamentalism.

Here’s what Benedict XVI had to say:

In the period between the two World Wars and especially after the Second World War, Catholic statesmen demonstrated that a modern secular State could exist that was not neutral regarding values but alive, drawing from the great ethical sources opened by Christianity.

Faithful to JP2’s legacy, the Catholic Church wants to dismantle the secular state. The Muslims want to dismantle the secular state (and institute caliphate). Both are working together (if independently) to undermine the Western civilization.

From Ecclesia in Europa 117:

In her relations with public authorities the Church is not calling for a return to the confessional state. She likewise deplores every type of ideological secularism or hostile separation between civil institutions and religious confessions.

It’s a really elaborate way of committing suicide, because there is no possible outcome where the Chuch can survive:

  • if the secular state wins, it will do so by annihilating any religious institutions, including the Church
  • if the Muslims win, they will institute caliphate, and kill all the non-believers – starting with Church hierarchs.

Why should the Church support a secular state if it will be hostile to religion, as you say? Why complain about the Church criticizing secularity when secularity wants to annihilate the Church?

Why do you say that? Just curious. :cool:

Because the protestants are actively trying to reconvert Europe. Us Catholics are much less active at reconverting Europe. I guess we like to kid ourselves that Europe is still the same as it was 100 years ago when in fact it is an entirely different continent now. I fear that when the current Catholics good enough to Heaven die, that they’ll be a lot less of them than the past generations.

The mainline Protestants? Last time I checked they were doing much worse than Catholicism in terms of membership.

Evangelicals and Pentecostals might be different though. :shrug:

We are seeing this here as the USCCB initially pushed for Obamacare, and advocate for amnesty and gun control. Someone recently posted info that over 90% of their budget comes from government funding.

The Church has no enemies save for the devil and his angels. John Paul’s pontificate was based on healing a culture, not fighting secularism. Does healing sometimes involve pain? Yes. But it is a purgative pain. John Paul always saw beyond the blanket terms like “secular”, or “liberal” and “conservative” - and saw each person for what he is - a person. The mission of the Church is to lead all peoples to the the Truth of Christ. What better way to stem the tide of Islam than by leading Europe back to the Faith? This is to be done by recognizing the dignity of the human person in light of the Person of Christ. In this way alone can the culture of death be restored to the culture of life.

By defining itself as opposition to the secular state, the Church chose the side of Islamist invaders.

This is a flawed approach, including a strawman leading into a false dichotomy. The Church has not defined itself as opposed to the secular state. Rather, the secular state has defined itself as opposed to the Church. The Church is founded on absolute principles that have been defined from eternity - it is unchanging in matters of faith and morals. The state teeters in relativism. Simply because the Church has not embraced the secular agenda doesn’t necessitate that she is on the side of the “Islamist invaders”. Once again - the Church desires to save souls - be they the souls of secularists or Muslims. So what the Church saw no problem with minarets in Switzerland? The Church adamantly denounces violent tactics employed by both the West and Islam, while showing acceptance towards the neutral or benevolent aspects. Its not all or nothing. The Church simply embraces the good of human nature and culture, and decries the evil.

Let me repeat that for you. There is a creeping invasion of (Western) Europe by adherents of a foreign religion and foreign civilization. The Europeans have realized that there is a problem and they have taken steps to stop it. And the Catholic Church – which built the modern Europe – is opposing the efforts to stop that invasion! Why? Because opposing Islam is secularism, and secularism is evil!

This is not true. The Church in no way desires Islam to take over the West! Instead, she is attempting to ward off the invasion utilizing different means than the secularists - the means that Christ Himself proscribed!

Faithful to JP2’s legacy, the Catholic Church wants to dismantle the secular state. The Muslims want to dismantle the secular state (and institute caliphate). Both are working together (if independently) to undermine the Western civilization.

It’s a really elaborate way of committing suicide, because there is no possible outcome where the Chuch can survive:

  • if the secular state wins, it will do so by annihilating any religious institutions, including the Church
  • if the Muslims win, they will institute caliphate, and kill all the non-believers – starting with Church hierarchs.

This conclusion is absurd. The Church has weathered many storms - and will weather this one as well. Christ is on our side and we are guided by the Holy Spirit. Too many tend to forget this. In my opinion, your assessment of the situation is far too black and white, misunderstands the missions and nature of the Christian religion, and most importantly, it lacks faith in the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church.

I agree that the EU politics is dangerous but I don’t think it can explain such a sudden drop. The EU is a slow killing machine.

Reasons are more difficult and perhaps the polish church has some responsibilty, too.

When we quit teaching the official language of the Catholic Church, a language that has been part of the Catholic Tradition, people lose a significant connection to the Church. It is time for revival of teaching Latin to all Catholic Students in Catholic Schools in the EU and in the Americas (North, South, and Central). The same attendance issues impacts many places around the world and we need to solidify the Church by having our official Church language brought back to life to make the history of our beliefs and rituals more significant.

Identidem

That’s surprising. I always thought of Poland as a very Catholic country but I suppose things change a lot in thirty years since the Pope’s role in Poland’s independence in the 80s.

Secularity does not want to annihilate the Church; decularity largely does not care about the Church. However, if the Church will continue its current course, then secularity will have no other choice (other than abolishing itself of course). The problem is the way the Church currently understands subsidiarity.

The current concept of the secular state is that it is universal rule of law – meaning, that everyone must obey law. If they don’t like it, they can vote to change it, but it does not excuse them from following the law. The main issue in Europe is currently this: if the individual believes that the law is unjust, can he be allowed to break the law without punishment? For example, in Poland recently there’s been a Catholic outcry over a doctor who was fired because he was illegally preventing his subordinates from carrying out abortions. Now, if Europe were to accept a Church-advocated doctrine where you can break a law simply because your religion tells you to, then there is nothing which stops wide scale Islamization of certain countries.

Here’s why. The Islamization of Europe is not being accomplished by force, but by demographics. What is happening is that a large group of Muslim immigrants settles together in one place, and then both outbreeds and drives out the natives – resulting in a neighborhood with Muslim majority. And, Muslims of course believe that sharia law is superior to state law. So, e.g. in UK there are whole communities effectively ruled by sharia law. However, there is still a major road block – the state at large does not recognize these, and still enforces its own law on these communities.

Take, for example, the French headscarf ban. Muslims do not believe that Muslim women should wear headscarf, they believe that all women should wear headscarf. So before this law was passed, there were cases that women in Muslim-dominated public schools were being harassed into headscarfs. However, the Muslims will say that the law forbidding a headscarf is unjust, and even that the law forbidding harassment of women without headscarf is unjust, as both violate religious law.

If we were to accept Catholic Church’s view that religious convictions give you a waiver to violate the law, then we have to accept primacy of sharia over state law. At this point, you’ve basically given the Muslims a waiver to slay non-Muslims (per the dar al-Harb doctrine).

Indeed. Catholics have lost the connection with one another with the all-vernacular Mass. English Mass at 10, Spanish Mass at 12, and never the twain shall they meet.

^Isnt the official language of the Church not Latin but actually Aramaic, because thats what Jesus spoke?

Latin was the one used for documents and stuff so no. Latin is the official. It was the language of the Roman Empire and the language of Rome where the Church was based. People all over the Empire learned Latin. Same can’t be said for Aramic.

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